Stop and Go Criteria

[tipperdog]

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More generally, you should be first to act on the flop and feel that you have no fold equity pre-flop, but some post-flop. It's also helpful if your hand has some showdown value.

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This is exactly right, IMO. Also key is when you have a hand that's vulnerable and your post flop push may induce a bad fold.

For example:

You have 77 in the BB with blinds of 100/200. You have 800 chips before posting. A loose raiser miniraises to 400.

If you push pre-flop, miniraiser almost certainly calls--and that call will almost certainly be correct. If you stop 'n' go, he might fold a hand like JK post-flop, despite having correct odds to call. But put yourself in his shoes (with a hand like KJ). If the flop comes Q83, and you push, that's a pretty tough call.

Of course, if he makes the "right" decision and calls, it's no loss to you. It would have been the same result as a pre-flop push from you anyway.

[tigerite]

Thing is you don't want him to fold KJ there if you only have 600 left, because your hand has such great showdown strength and actually wants to be in as a 55% favourite or whatever.

Now, if you could somehow guarantee he'd fold 88 and 99 there or something on an AKT flop.. then it's very different.

[tipperdog]

No. Recheck my example (I set up all these chip counts to illustrate a "perfect" stop-n-go situation--I agree they're rare in STTs). You have 800 before the hand starts. You post 200 and call an additional 200 PF. You now have T400 left and the pot is T900. When you push, he is offered better than 3:1 odds (1,300:400), which means he SHOULD call with KJ. If he folds, it's a "bad" fold and you make $$.

[tigerite]

Who cares about his odds though? I want the extra 400 chips because I am ahead of his hand, and you shouldn't be afraid to take a 55/45 when you are short stacked like that, unless it's on the bubble and there's a micro stack or some other ridiculous situation. You WANT to be all in as a favourite here!

[tipperdog]

What you really want to do is maximize your value, and that is accomplished in my example by a stop 'n' go rather than a straight push. You are correct that pushing is a good play (you get your $$ is as the favorite), but it is not THE BEST play. Remember, you are only a "coin flip" if you see all 5 cards. A SnG stands a good chance of denying the overcards the opportunity to see all five--and that's a real coup for you.

In my example, you should be happy as a gay cowboy on brokeback mountain if your opponent folds his overs on the flop when he has odds to call. He has made a FTOP error, and that's great for you. If you push PF and he calls, he hasn't made an error at all (and neither have you). What the stop 'n' go does is creates a situation where you opponent can err--and THAT'S playing poker.

[tewall]

Why does it lose EV against very strong hands?

Say the stealer will raise with any two. If you push, he'll call with whatever his calling range is. If you stop and go, then the push is twice the pot. This involves another range to call. If we say the stealer will only call with top pair of better, then he's got I think about a 15% chance of calling. So is this 15% likely to be less than what he would called with on an immediate pre-flop push?

It seems to me the two plays are very close. One advantage I see to the stop and go is that if the stop and go'er hits his hand, he doesn't have to push. He can try to leverage the times he hits the flop, and bluff the times he misses.