Party 50 NL hand with AA

Byrn · #1 08-04-2003, 08:07 PM

Party 50 NL, I am new to the table and don't really know any of the players well.

I get AA UTG+1. UTG limps ($1), I raise to $4. All fold to BB who calls, UTG folds. BB is unknown to me, in the 5 hands I have been at the table, he seems to be in almost every hand, so he seems to be playing almost any 2 pre flop.

Flop Ks5h4h. I don't have Ah. BB goes all in for $39. I haven't seen him make a move like this in the time I have been at the table. I think he has been pretty tight post flop actually.

The other thing I know about the BB is that as I arrived at the table another player was berating the BB for donating money to him. Well, thanking him in a mean spirited way would be an accurate description. So maybe he made a move like this prior without much.

Would he make this strong move with any K? Would he need 2 pair? Is he tilting and/or trying to bully me?

My thought process went like this: Most of the time when I see this play on Party it is not a bluff, though I of course have seen this play as a bluff. It usually means a hand they really like (2 pair, set). I have only $4 invested, and I don't think I have the best hand anymore. I can get away from this and be fine with it. I would much rather be betting all in than calling right here.

So, I folded.

Thoughts? Flames? I'm a total Wuss?

kelvin474 · #2 08-05-2003, 09:52 AM

well, if he has a king you're killing him, and he probably doesnt have K4 or K5, which you have some outs against anyway- an ace, a running pair, or the 3rd flop card.

it's either a set or you're killing him, I think. I've definitley seen people call a raise even heads-up with 55 or 44. KK would be less likely since he didn't re-raise i guess.

I dont think i can solve the problem, however. I suspect I would move-in along with him and get shown KJ for all his money. either that or 555 for all my money.

Byrn · #3 08-05-2003, 11:50 AM

I agree with you here, the more I think about it the more it is bothering me. I really didn't like my position. I watched the player through more hands, and he made strong moves with a great hands and with not-so great hands, but no "all in to the raiser on the flop" moves.

I think if it happened again I would call. The more I think about it the more the possibility of a strong move with a weak king seems likely. I do think he would play a K5 or a K4 in the bb here after watching more hands.

In fact, against two pair on the flop I have a 26% chance of winning according to a sim I just ran. Given the small probability he has a set, the possibility of two pair, and the reasonable chance he was making a move with one pair (perhaps with a draw in there), I think I need to call here.

DKNY · #4 08-05-2003, 12:43 PM

You have to call that. If he had a big hand, wouldn't he go for the check-raise since you were the pre-flop raiser?

If he made a set then pay him off, I think it's more likely he picked up the straight or flush draw.

D

Byrn · #5 08-05-2003, 01:42 PM

You have to call that. If he had a big hand, wouldn't he go for the check-raise since you were the pre-flop raiser?

Yes.

The more I am thinking about this today, the more I realize I have to call. The chance he has something I can beat is too high to fold. This one is going to be on my mind for a while. I am relatively new to ring NL, so these are the kind of lessons I am going to learn from experience.

I think I was putting too high % weight on the worst case scenario in my on-the-spot calculations, and not enough weight on the probability he was trying to bully me.

Gronk · #6 08-05-2003, 02:55 PM

I'm going to have to go against the general consensus here and say that you easily did the right thing by folding. 4x the big blind isn't really that big of a raise. Anyone holding 44 or 55 has an easy call here in late position preflop. It wouldn't be terrible to call with 4 5 suited in late position either. Also, consider the possibility that he smooth called your raise preflop with KK.

I wouldn't put too much stock in hearing someone criticising his play from a hand before you joined the table. Unless you saw that hand yourself don't take the other player's word for it.

If he's bluffing here, then he did a good job because he got your money. I think more often than not, you'll find that he's not bluffing and you're behind. If he has a strong king then you're a favorite. With any other reasonable holding you're a big dog and that's not a situation where you want to put your money in the middle. There's only $8 in the middle and only half of it came from you. Calling an all-in bet with most of your stack on the flop with an overpair is an easy way to lose a lot of money.

Don't second guess yourself. You thought you were behind and you probably were. It was a good fold.

Gronk · #7 08-05-2003, 03:07 PM

If you flop a strong hand and check to the pre-flop raiser he's likely to bet that's true. But when you check-raise him it makes up his mind for him that he's beat and you might not get any more action.

If you bet out say, 2/3 of the pot, often times you'll see that they'll raise a significant amount and then you can play back at them. The earning potential is much better here IMO.

Ulysses · #8 08-05-2003, 03:18 PM

Sure, you might have been ahead of his King, but most times I see this move (all-in into the PFR), the all-in has something good. And usually PFR will call w/ AK or AA and get shown two pair or a set. Sometimes, of course, it's a semi-bluff w/ 67 or a complete bluff, w/ the all-in hoping PFR has QQ or worse and will fold. In that case, good move.

Calling a big bet w/ an overpair seems to be the most common way I see people losing their stacks in NL. I think folding here is definitely fine.

Legend27 · #9 08-05-2003, 08:03 PM

If you don't think he's good, call. I would have called.

ZeeJustin · #10 08-05-2003, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4x the big blind isn't really that big of a raise. It wouldn't be terrible to call with 4 5 suited in late position either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it would be terrible. Everyone has folded. Even if you [falsely] assume the UTG guy would call, the call would be horrendous. I'm not saying the average Party player would never make a call like this, but it would be an awful call.

I personally would put the guy on a flush draw, possibly with the king of hearts, and another random heart. I have noticed a lot of people on Party betting 4-flushes like they are the nuts. I would also call in this situation.

Like you mentioned, you wouldn't be all that big of an underdog to 2-pair. If he has K4 and another 5 comes up, all the sudden you are the favorite. Same goes for a pair of 7's on the turn and river, or something similar. If he has 54, you are in an even better position.