Flopping a Monster

[Slowplay]

Hey yawl,

I believe that I correctly slowplayed a monster this afternoon (for the first time) although I am sure that I missed something. I'll leave it up to the gallery to decide...

Typical game; 6-12; a few really good players. UTG raises (super-solid, only makes it two bets with four or five hands EP), Middle cold calls (another solid player), Late makes it three (a bit looser than normal; loves to see the flop and then bail out). I am OTB with AJs and while I know I am slight dog at the moment, this is the first premium that I'm dealt for over an hour so I call (I was tempted to cap it, but UTG and Middle are aggressive, so I am praying for a killer flop and then let them do the betting--correct play?). SB and BB fold. Four of us see: AAJ rainbow.

UTG bets out, Middle calls, Late folds and I call. Mistake? Turn: K. Now I am a bit worried, and figure that UTG has 1-in-4 of holding AK. He bets, Middle folds, and I just call fearing a re-raise or perhaps driving him out. Did I miss a bet here? Would he have check-raised if he had AK, trying to represent AJ? Anyhow, I decide to keep the slowplay and pray the PG's don't dump runner-runner Ks.

The River is a blank. UTG bets and now I re-raise. He calls (insert deep breath here) with AQs. Okay, did I earn my self-appointed moniker or I did miss something on the slowplay?

Be nice.

SP

[asdf1234]

If you're very positive that the raiser holds a hand that dominates yours, you might want to just muck it preflop. Looking at your results, you hit one of your three outs to win. Praying for flops does not lead to profitable sessions.

Anyway, after the flop, I think you played it fine, I might have considered raising the turn since you're heads up and you have nobody to keep in. If he has an ace, he's probably not going to muck it (especially with a good kicker) and you're going to get 2 bets out of him. If he happens to have a smaller boat (KK or JJ), then you might get lots of action. If he doesn't have an ace, he can't think that you're calling along with nothing, and he's probably going to check the river. If he's got a good read on you, then you're not going to make much more than you did on this hand.

[cosmo kramer]

You lost money slowplaying. Let's say that he raises the 5 big hands preflop UTG: AA, KK, QQ, AK and AQ.(If this is the case a fold preflop is in order) So, we can rule out AA. If you raise the flop, he will probably call you down with QQ since there are two AA instead of one. If he has KK, he would call the flop raise and probably checkraise the turn when he catches the KK. With AK or AQ he will probably cap the flop and maybe even checkraise the turn.

If the flop is capped that's 1 1/2 BB, while you only gained 1 BB by waiting until the river. The major problem with waiting until the river is that you are most likely to get reraised by a better hand. However, raising the flop or even the turn gives you a better chance to gain more bets. Therefore, the meaning of all this is to be more agressive with the nuts when it is very possible that someone else has a strong hand.

[Ed Miller]

I'm sorry to say, mate, but you played this hand horribly.

First of all, your preflop call is absolutely atrocious. When a super-tight raiser raises UTG, a solid player calls him, and another player 3-bets, AJ, suited or not, should be in the muck so ridiculously fast. I can't decide which preflop play is sillier... calling or capping. In fact, a tight player UTG raising alone should be enough to deter you from playing AJs... the 3-bet turns the call from marginally bad to atrocious.

I think it's great that you are posting on the forum and trying to improve your game. I would like to help you do that along with others on this forum. If you are serious about improving your game, though, you should never play a hand just because you are bored and haven't had a decent hand recently. If you play a marginal hand every once in a while for one bet preflop because you are bored, that's not the end of the world (though you still should avoid it... it's just giving money away more often than not). But never ever say, "I'm bored, time to play" when it's 3 bets to you. It's just too damn expensive. You needed a miracle flop to turn your hand into a winner here.

And you got it. So what did you do? You got the fewest bets possible from a field that was drawing dead and an UTG player who was trapped and drawing slim.

Here's the deal... what does UTG have? He either has a big pair or he has a big Ace. If he has a big pair, then he is going to hate it when he gets called in two places on that flop. He will more than likely just check the turn and either call it down for one bet per street or fold. So if he has a big pair, you aren't going to make much from him anyway, slowplay or not. If he has a big Ace, though, he's liable to go off for several bets on the flop and a couple of bets on the turn before he realizes that he's been punked. When you wait for the river to raise, though, it is quite likely that you will only be 3-bet if you are beaten (KK and JJ might 3-bet you).

You could easily have made 3 bets on the flop, 2 on the turn, and 1 on the river from him. Instead you got one full BB less out of him because you slowplayed.

[Louie Landale]

AJs is bad enough against one player that has you beat, but its a disaster against 2. You are almost definately 2 cards behind the field at this point (flopping a J surely isn't the best hand, and flopping an A isn't either; not against these two tight players). And its 3-bets before the flop. Yuuck. You'd be much better off with 22; at least post-flop would be easy to play.

Nothing to think about here, except whether the coctail waitress is nearby. Fold.

I would like to point out that your slow-play yeilded the minimum on this hand. If you had raised the turn the outcome would have been the same, but if you had raised the flop you would have won one more bet from the caller, or two more bets from the AQ (if he 3-bets). You only gain here if the bettor has JJ and will fold to an early raise but will keep betting it all the way to the river, which is unlikely. More likely he'll bet the turn with JJ then check-fold the river, at least against the solid player who keeps calling. No sense in giving him a free 2 card out, raise the turn.

Slowplaying is for when they are NOT going to call you and in some heads-up situations. The most common slow-play is when the bettor is on your right and you don't want to face the field with a double bet.

Slowplaying is NOT a function of the strength of your hand. Its mostly about whether the opponents will or will not call 1-bet or 2-bets cold.

- Louie

[Slowplay]

It appears that I was at least correct in assuming that I missed something (insert smile here). Thanks for taking the time to really dissect this play. I suppose it's better to get re-raised on a cheaper street--one more bet and more information to gamble with. What hands does UTG comes over the top with if I do play-back at him on the Flop?

Would it have been still too meek an approach on my part if the turn is, say, a T? Also, I am a little confused about UTG getting trapped with big pairs with two callers? I assume he's only pinned with KK and QQ, correct? Does JJ play to the river in this situation? Rookie, right-brain questions, I know, please bear with me.

Lastly, I did confess my dog status pre-flop--not to mention onsetting impatience and boredom--and since it had been an hour or so of sandpaper-dry cards, is it far too unreasonable to assume that UTG might have been playing something as marginal as KQs, and perhaps sensing some kind of weakness on the flop, attack both me and Middle, blinded by the same boredom and impatience, himself praying for a back-door? Unlikely, I know, but it's way-too-early on an icy cold San Franciso Sunday morning and I haven't had a sip of of coffee yet.

Anyhow, thanks again for helpful feedback, although I would suggest using fewer adverbs; that's truly atrocious. :O)

SP,
English Guy

[Ed Miller]

Does JJ play to the river in this situation?

Of course... JJ flopped a boat too. I assume you mean a hand like TT. No... TT would not like his hand at all here... but no matter what you do, you won't get much money out of him unless he spikes a set on the turn.

The point is, on a flop like this, slowplaying just is basically never helpful. People either have it or they don't... and if they don't they will be cautious to the end no matter how slowly you play it. If they aren't cautious, then generally they have it. If they have it, they will give you action... but they can't give you action if you never raise them.

As for playing scared when the K comes on the turn... that's a function of your poor preflop decision. When you call 3 bets preflop with dominated hands, you will constantly be worrying that you are beaten... even when you flop Aces full.

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
...since it had been an hour or so of sandpaper-dry cards, is it far too unreasonable to assume that UTG might have been playing something as marginal as KQs

[/ QUOTE ]

How would the fact that you haven't been getting cards for an hour affect the cards that UTG has in this hand?

[Slowplay]

It's purely hypothetical of course, but the drought was hitting him as well and so perhaps he attacked with the first good (close to premium) hand that he saw. Even the most solid players get impatient and raising UTG with KQs isn't all that preposterous, is it?

[Allan]

Raising UTG with KQs is a fine play. I can't remember the last time I didn't raise with it. It isn't a marginal hand (well, maybe after it gets 3 bet you could consider it marginal).

Allan