When to Value bet when to not Value bet?

MVicuna · #1 07-20-2005, 03:16 AM

I'm 'slumming' 4 tables of 2/4 cause I few 1000 hands short of 10k needed for the 911 freeroll. I leave off my action and will discuss

Hand 1 :
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds.

River: (12.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero...

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Hand 2:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
4 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero...

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Piiop · #2 07-20-2005, 04:12 AM

Hand 1 - Don't bet. The big obvious flush draw just got there as well as the J on the turn which isn't very good for your hand either. Consider calling 1 bet, consider folding.

Hand 2 - Uh, don't bet, but more importantly - what's that turn checkraise? One opponent calls you and another raises you on a drawless board of A44 and you checkraise the turn??

Matt Jenko · #3 07-20-2005, 04:18 AM

I'd check and fold in hand 1. No real chance of having the best hand here with second pair against the calling hordes.
Hand 2, check and see what the other 2 do in this one. Hand has played a bit wierd though. What do you put him on to raise the turn like that?

(edited as misread number of people seeing this hand to river in numero 2).

jordanx · #4 07-20-2005, 04:22 AM

Hand 1. Don't bet. The 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] makes a lot of hands that people could easily be drawing to.

Hand 2. Don't bet. Hopefully your turn check raise will win you a free showdown.

#5 07-20-2005, 05:23 AM

Hand 1: check river and see what happends
Hand 2: check river.
and i don't like check/raise on tern.
but i'd like to 3-bet flop for get mor information:
if CO cap - you'r behind - check/fold tern (if it isn't Ace, 4 or 5 on it).
if MP3&CO call - i think, you'r also behind, but i depends of players type.
if MP3 folds and CO calls or vice versa - bet/fold tern, check/call river or somthing like that.

spamuell · #6 07-20-2005, 06:13 AM

I haven't played full ring in a while but I'm pretty sure I'd fold the flop in Hand 1.

crunchy1 · #7 07-20-2005, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played full ring in a while but I'm pretty sure I'd fold the flop in Hand 1.

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You're going to fold top-pair with a backdoor straight draw when given the perfect opportunity to knock out the field with a flop raise and greatly improve your chances of winning a decent pot?!?

spamuell · #8 07-20-2005, 09:47 AM

Yeah. SB just bet into a field of 6, there's a very good chance he has you beat. Couple that the fact that the board is very drawy and there are 5 loose players behind you, one of whom could also already have you beat and many of whom could easily have you beat by the river, your position is really bad and your hand is only mediocre so your implied odds are terrible but the implied odds you're offering your opponents are good, even making the field face 2 cold is probably not enough to stop lots of overcard hands calling and you're going to pay off a lot of the time an overcard falls, when you are behind (which I think is often) you have probably 3 outs but when ahead your hand is very vulnerable, I think it's a fold.

toby · #9 07-20-2005, 09:49 AM

hand 1: check/fold. So many people in, someone is bound to have hit their flush. Coldcalls anywhere (like the flop in this case) is often a dead giveaway for a flush draw. 2nd pair will rarely beat a large field like this.

hand 2: I'd bet, but that could very well be chip-spewing. This is a wierd hand, but you showed a lot of strength and mp3 still cold called. Without any decent reads I would put mp3 on 88 or _maybe_ a weak ace that you tie, and CO on AJ. Hopefully he had A9 and you split mp3's donation to the pot.

Anyway after CO's call on the turn, I don't see him raising the river so you may as well bet instead of check/call for the same price. If he calls with 99 instead of checking it behind, you win an extra BB.

crunchy1 · #10 07-20-2005, 10:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SB just bet into a field of 6 limpers, there's a very good chance he has a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP.

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Couple that the fact that the board is very drawy and there are 5 loose players behind you

[/ QUOTE ]
This defines the reason to raise. Draws will call any bet - it doesn't matter if it's one or two. The important point is: They're Drawing! Get the value from them now!

[ QUOTE ]
even making the field face 2 cold is probably not enough to stop lots of overcard hands calling and you're going to pay off a lot of the time an overcard falls, when you are behind (which I think is often) you have probably 3 outs but when ahead your hand is very vulnerable, I think it's a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Overcard hands (not holding a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) like KJ/AQ are not calling 2SBs profitably on the flop. Folding them really helps increase Heros chances of winning by showdown.

Why do you feel that Hero is forced to pay off when an over card hits? Hero raises the flop because he was put in a great position to dramtically increase his chances of winning a nice-sized pot. Just because he raises does not commit him to going to showdown.