TQs BB. Standard?

First hand so no reads.

BB with T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

5 Limpers, SB completes. I raise. All call

7 go to a flop of 14SB.

Board brings T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG who bets. 1 fold, 4 calls and i peel one off.

6 go to the turn for 10BB

Turn card is the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG who bets, UTG +1 raises, and the button calls. SB folds as do i.

Totally standard?

[DCWildcat]

Merry Christmas

[Agthorr]

I don't like raising this preflop. This is a situation that thrives on implied odds. There's a big field, which means you will most likely need a big hand to win. You want to hit a OESD or a flush draw (or ideally both at the same time). Why cut your implied odds in half by raising? Your odds of getting a flush or straight are much worse than the 6:1 you're getting from the other players who will call your raise.

The flop sucks. You probably don't have the best hand now, and what are you drawing towards? If you get another Q, someone else may get a straight (or a flush if it's Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]). I guess either T is a safe out, though you may still lose if someone catches a straight or flush on the river. Unfortunately, you're getting enormous odds now, so you have to chase your two-outter anyway.

If you didn't raise preflop, you'd be able to fold on the flop, which would be much better against a large field with a very marginal hand.

thanks for that nice analysis.

the counter argument, and the reason i raised is to push my pot equity which i feel is more than the 14.3% i need to make this a value raise.

Case in point:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.2148 % 21.04% 01.20% { QdTd }
Hand 2: 12.9288 % 11.90% 01.04% { random }
Hand 3: 12.9584 % 11.93% 01.05% { random }
Hand 4: 12.9768 % 11.94% 01.05% { random }
Hand 5: 12.9901 % 11.96% 01.04% { random }
Hand 6: 12.9789 % 11.95% 01.04% { random }
Hand 7: 12.9521 % 11.92% 01.04% { random }

Also, i feel a bloated pot here may even increase our postflop expectation as we are usually drawing to or close to the nuts and a big pot forces others to correctly call down.

[Schwartzy61]

So you're saying that each of 5 limpers entered the pot with anything from 72o to pocket rockets? That's just making the stats say what you want there...

I just don't think you are gonna be in a good position on the flop to take advantage of pushing your slim equity edge preflop...there's no way it's quite as large as your stats create...

the point of that was:

first up this site in general the play is pretty bad, hands like 67o are certainly possible.

but what im showing is that i need 15% roughly to correctly value raise. If they are random im getting 22%. when we get a more accurate range for each player, i still think it would be around 18%

[ QUOTE ]
Case in point:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.2148 % 21.04% 01.20% { QdTd }
Hand 2: 12.9288 % 11.90% 01.04% { random }
Hand 3: 12.9584 % 11.93% 01.05% { random }
Hand 4: 12.9768 % 11.94% 01.05% { random }
Hand 5: 12.9901 % 11.96% 01.04% { random }
Hand 6: 12.9789 % 11.95% 01.04% { random }
Hand 7: 12.9521 % 11.92% 01.04% { random }

Also, i feel a bloated pot here may even increase our postflop expectation as we are usually drawing to or close to the nuts and a big pot forces others to correctly call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think these numbers come close to estimating your preflop equtiy. Q10 is a hand that is easily dominated and if someone is limping with QJ or KQ or K10 it destroys your equity.

edited to say that DeathDonkey (and maybe others) once posted that in a really loose good game like this it is probably never that big of a mistake to raise any suited broadway from any position. So I don't think it's that big of a deal. I just think that playing these types of hands OOP might negate our preflop equity edge enough where I don't know if a raise is really +EV.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think these numbers come close to estimating your preflop equtiy. Q10 is a hand that is easily dominated and if someone is limping with QJ or KQ or K10 it destroys your equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often would you say that this would happen?

[Eeegah]

Bump cuz it's in the digest:

[ QUOTE ]
the counter argument, and the reason i raised is to push my pot equity which i feel is more than the 14.3% i need to make this a value raise.
Case in point:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.2148 % 21.04% 01.20% { QdTd }
Hand 2: 12.9288 % 11.90% 01.04% { random }
Hand 3: 12.9584 % 11.93% 01.05% { random }
Hand 4: 12.9768 % 11.94% 01.05% { random }
Hand 5: 12.9901 % 11.96% 01.04% { random }
Hand 6: 12.9789 % 11.95% 01.04% { random }
Hand 7: 12.9521 % 11.92% 01.04% { random }

[/ QUOTE ]

If we take your argument to its logical conclusion your PFR and VPIP should both be a little under 50%, as you should be raising any hand that has an equity edge over the random hands all your opponents are limping with if the pot isn't raised. We raising K5o in any position now?