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  #1  
Old 12-18-2005, 10:13 AM
private joker private joker is offline
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Default Commerce floor ruling

20/40 limit. I'm in late position against 2 opponents, a man in EP and a woman in MP.

The flop comes 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. They both check, I bet, they both call.

Turn is 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. It gets checked around.

River is 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. It gets checked around.

EP guy tosses his hand face up into the middle of the table. I see two paint cards. MP woman turns up AQ. I table A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and hold it in front of me. Dealer mucks EP's face cards, MP's AQ, and pushes the pot to me.

As I'm scooping the pot towards my stack (I keep my chips stacked in neat pyramid-fashion, so the pot is still scattered around the pyramid gathering and waiting to be stacked), 3 players at the table plus the EP guy start to object. They say EP had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a flush. No cards are face up on the table except my AK (which hasn't been mucked yet by the dealer) and the board cards. The dealer thinks and nods, agreeing that the EP hand he mucked was indeed a flush. I'm wondering what the hell -- the pot is in front of me and I have the only live hand.

So I call the floor. I tell him what happened, and he asks if the AK hand is mine. Dealer says yes. Then the other players say EP had the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Floorman asks the dealer if this is true, dealer says yes. Floorman asks the other players if they all saw it, and 3 or 4 of them say yes, he had a flush. Floorman turns to me and says, "Then sir, I have to award him the pot if he had the flush."

The dealer then starts digging around in the muck to turn up cards. Eventually he finds the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] then digs around turning up a few more before finding the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. This satisfies the floor completely, and I take the pile and shove it over to EP myself.

I don't doubt that he had the flush -- even though I never saw it, I'm sure the other players wouldn't all lie at once. But why did the river check through? Also, shouldn't EP be punished for releasing his hand before getting awarded the pot? The rules state that my hand, face up, is the only live one on the board and thus should be the winner. If I'm a nit, I probably complain more -- but since I figured the guy with the flush deserved the pot, I didn't argue any more. Should I have?
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2005, 10:17 AM
daryn daryn is offline
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

i probably would have done what you did. going by what people are saying, he probably held those cards and had the flush, so i would give up the pot.
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  #3  
Old 12-18-2005, 12:53 PM
DrewOnTilt DrewOnTilt is offline
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

If both the dealer and half of the players at the table say that he had the flush, then the floor made the right call. The rule of thumb is that everything possible should be done to award the pot to the winning hand.
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  #4  
Old 12-18-2005, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

that many ppl arent gonna lie about seeing the flush, so i wouldnt worry about it, but anywhere ive played on the east coast say that you have the winning hand because its the only live hand still. theyre gonna say he shouldve protected his cards. he didnt announce the flush, so at a quick glance of the cards, how was anyone supposed to know?
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  #5  
Old 12-18-2005, 01:03 PM
chesspain chesspain is offline
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

[ QUOTE ]
As I'm scooping the pot towards my stack (I keep my chips stacked in neat pyramid-fashion, so the pot is still scattered around the pyramid gathering and waiting to be stacked), 3 players at the table plus the EP guy start to object. They say EP had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like the "cards spoke" and at least half the table was listening. Give the man his money.
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  #6  
Old 12-18-2005, 01:09 PM
Randy_Refeld Randy_Refeld is offline
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

[ QUOTE ]
The rules state that my hand, face up, is the only live one on the board and thus should be the winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rules make no reference to your hand.

Whenever possible the player with the best hand gets the pot.
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  #7  
Old 12-18-2005, 01:14 PM
bernie bernie is offline
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

[ QUOTE ]
Also, shouldn't EP be punished for releasing his hand before getting awarded the pot? The rules state that my hand, face up, is the only live one on the board and thus should be the winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

EP didn't muck his hand, he tabled it. Cardspeak.

[ QUOTE ]
But why did the river check through?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he was afraid of the FH. Yes, some people are that weak.

b
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  #8  
Old 12-18-2005, 01:16 PM
Sponger15SB Sponger15SB is offline
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

[ QUOTE ]
i probably would have done what you did. going by what people are saying, he probably held those cards and had the flush, so i would give up the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO WAY DARREN WHAT ARE YOU NUTS! YOU GOTTA TAKE EVERY POT YOU CAN. IF I WERE THE OP I WOULD HAVE DOVE OVER THE TABLE AND SCRAMBLED THE MUCK UP REAL GOOD, THEN BERATED THE DEALER AND THE OTHER PLAYER FOR MESSING WITH ME.
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  #9  
Old 12-18-2005, 01:24 PM
SossMan SossMan is offline
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

Perfect all the way around. (except for the guy checking his flush and the dealer pushing the pot to the wrong hand).

Floor - A
You - A
Other Players - A
Dealer - C
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  #10  
Old 12-18-2005, 04:21 PM
Rick Nebiolo Rick Nebiolo is offline
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Default Re: Commerce floor ruling

If you don't doubt EP had the flush (and it's confirmed by most of the table) then everything is copacetic. But sometimes there is significant doubt, and a unscrupulous stronger player might like to see a pot that's rightfully yours (a strong player) go to another player who is a fish. When there is this sort of doubt and lack of multiple confirmations ask for a camera check or further verification and don't be afraid to be a pest.

Also keep in mind not to let winning hands out of your grasp - too many dealers are working on about two hours sleep (or sleepwalking through the job).

~ Rick
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