Playing online - for the birds???

[sucka]

OK - let me just say first off that I'm no big believer in the 'consipiracy theory' that online gambling sites are out to cheat their players. Nor am I saying this just because I've taken one hellacious beating the last several days playing online - it's been atrocious and I won't go into details. After some review, it's apparent there has been some bad play on my part - I certainly don't deny that. But some of the stuff I've seen online has really got me thinking that if you decide to play online you truly are gambling - in every sense of the word.

Now, I've been a student of poker long enough to know that a bad run of cards is bound to catch up with you - and you'll never see it coming nor will you know how long it will last. I play poker voluntarly, and that I can accept. To be honest with you I wouldn't mind all that much sitting there folding trash hand after trash hand - it's part of the game. However, I find that online in comparson to B&M that there are an improportinate number of times where so many players have such good hands - hands that in many cases tie them to flop and as they get better and 'force' (I use that term lightly) players to stay in the pot.

Does this happen every hand? No. Why would it - it would be way to obvious and smarter players would soon pick up on the pattern. The thing is - as long as it doesn't occur to an individual player too often they won't really think too much about it. You can see something strange but if you weren't in the hand you just think, "Ouch! - glad I folded...".

As someone mentioned in a previous post - there are more 'dramatic' flops in online rooms than anywhere I've ever played before in my life.

Of course, all this being said - I can't prove anything and really have intrest in wasting my time trying. Just keep in mind that these sites are run offshore with NO regulation or supervision by any gaming commission. They are free to do whatever they want. Sure, they can say some big 10 auditing firm came in and made sure there shuffle algorithim was legit - but who really knows what that means.

I'm 99.99% sure that after this current buy-in gets gobbled up on my next run of Group 1 hands being taken down by 2 outers I'm done playing online. I've been a winning poker player for some time. I've been a dedicated student of the game - reading or studying something poker related nearly every day for over the past year. I don't know what's going on online - perhaps it's just that I don't play very well there. I do tend to get distracted and don't have the patience to sit and stare at my computer for hours on end playing for $1 or $2 an hour against relatively good players fighting a tough rake. In the end, I guess my free time is better spent elsewhere. I'll save my poker time for when I actually get to 'sit down' and buy a rack and envelope myself in the game.

Finally, I thought I'd share a final story about my online escpade. Tonight I decided to grind out what was left of my original buy in and continued to witness some very extraordinary activity. This hand was the one (and the details around it) that convinced that playing online just isn't for me:

Fortunately, I wasn't involved in this hand - but I grabbed a history and here's how it went.

I get one of my all-time favorites, Q5o on the button. :-)

UTG+1 raises folded to MP who re-raises folded to cutoff who makes it 3 bets. All call.

*** FLOP *** : [ 3c 3s 4h ]

Check, bet, raise...all call.

*** TURN *** : [ 3c 3s 4h ] [ 2d ]

bet, raise, raise...all call.

Your dying aren't you??? :-)

*** RIVER *** : [ 3c 3s 4h 2d ] [ Jc ]

bet, call, call.

UTG+1 and MP both had AA and cutoff had KK.

Isn't that special.

The great part was MP had just had AA the hand before as well and won a huge pot.

The even better part was that AA and KK were both dealt the very next hand and showndown on a board full of rags again.

Unreal. I don't know what the odds are of that occuring but it has to be astronmical. If I saw that event alone in an evening I wouldn't think that much of it. However, combine that with some of the other weirdness I've seen over the past several sessions it starts to get to be a little too much for me.

Anyway, maybe it is just random and I'm seeing a group of statistcal anomolies in the extreme short term - but I've only spent about 5 hours playing online the last 2 days - and it's freakin' me out. Maybe like someone mentioned, since I think something weird could be going on I'm not playing my best game. Whatever it is I'm tired of thinking about it. It serves me best just to stay away and take my game to the casino's.

Anyway, thanks for listening. I'll see ya in the card rooms.

[lorinda]

OK - let me just say first off that I'm no big believer in the 'consipiracy theory' that online gambling sites are out to cheat their players

The mating call of the kook.

[Twisty]

I hear you!
The only difference for me is that i cant win at my B&M cardroom.
Once a month i decide to crawl out of my lazyboy in front of my computer and go play some LIVE poker,its a 2 hour drive to port perry to go play at the great blue heron casino.
Now i dont want to accuse them of suspicious play because i dont have any proof,but im almost positive a couple of those players up there are BOTS!They dont talk and they always win,not to mention the one has a twitch(they dont maintain them very well,must be a short circuit)


All kidding aside to those of you that doubt the authenticity of the main online cardrooms ,YOU should come watch me play LIVE poker(i'm famous for my bad beats)
When i do venture up to port perry Im always asked
"where u been ?"and when i tell them im playing online these days,i always get the"Ive played but i dont trust it"
"there always setting u up","the things that happen online dont happen in real life"
So i say to those of u that say things that happen to u online dont happen in real life,i say be happy because those runs DO happen in a live game (to some of us more than others)
In three years of playing online probably six hours a day
i have only lost on quads once,last month at port perry i lost on quads twice in about a total of 30 hours play.
Thems the breaks!
If you are losing consistently online over a long period of time,at a reputable cardroom,you are simply being outplayed.
Many players who are winning players at B&M cardrooms(esp.the tight solid players)think that they know how to play the game perfect and anybody who dosent play that way must be an inferior player so they cannot reconize when a player is better than them,Therefore cannot take there game to next level.
When i started playing online i too thought i was a great player(mainly because i was a consisent winner at the B&M cardrooms even with my bad beats)but after getting pounded by the "pigeons" day after day i realized that some of these players were awesome players.
So after a while i opened my mind and learned alot from these "pigeons"
Life has been great since
Instead of blaming your run of cards or the cardroom itself,take that energy and oppurtunity to improve your game.
The future top players in the world will be "online players"
because the competiton is stonger therefore forcing the determined to play better than any B&m group of players!

"SEE YOU AT THE FINAL TABLE"
TWISTY

[Emperor]

When I first started playing online around 3 years ago, shortly after PlanetPoker found out that people were exploiting thier random number generator. (It wasn't random, made national news)

There were a number of statistical analyses done on flop cards and board cards as a whole.

What was found at Paradise Poker was that not only were the hole cards random, but board cards were random, and not only were they random, but thier distribution was perfectly even.

So then the kooks start saying, "well they distribute board cards and hole cards in such a way that they create bigger pots for more rake while still keeping the distribution even."

Even if the software was capable of doing that, it isn't doing it.

An analysis of a huge number of hands was done to see if more str8ts, flushes, boats, etc were being seen compared to flop %. Amazingly the distribution was perfect.

The final conclusion was and has probably been said before; You see so many more cards/hands/flops online that it creates an illusion of something fishy (to use a technical term.)

Now not everyone uses the same number generator as Paradise, but if thier was a non-random generator out thier,then someone would be exploiting it and the casino would be scrambling to fix it.

I must be a fanboy/shill...

[Hotchile]

Sucka, I will give you the benefit of the doubt because you are right. You do experience more bad beats online in a session than you will have in a B&M. I think it is inarguably true. The question is why? I think there is a few options:
A) The cardroom is fixed.
B) You look at 2.5x more hands per hour than in a B&M
C) Tilt
D) Perceived tilt.

A) I have been online for a little over 3 years and the only site that I have not posted a net win at is Propoker. Many players who post here are paying the bills from online poker so I don't think the "fixed" theory holds much water.
B) This means that you can put 2.5 days worth of B&M bad beats into one session online. Sometimes they happen fairly rapidly which causes a whole new problem......
C) .....tilt, suddenly you get involved with a few hands that you maybe shouldn't. Flop top pair, oblivious that you are possibly way behind. At showdown, MR. Tight shows you his overpair. Looks like a bad beat, but isn't. This sets up yet another problem...........
D) Perception of tilt. When I see a player who is obviously tilted, I will often call him down with not much. This furthers his tilt and soon all his chips are gone. Problem is, he might not be on tilt, but if it looks like he is, I might give him the gamble and then fluke out by hitting trips at the river. I am not reinventing the wheel here. Most players here would play a tilter the same way. Now you start getting 5 callers to your KK raise. We all think you're tilting. Of course, individually, we are all playing incorrectly according to the FTOP, but collectively, we have driven our pot odds up making a lot of draws correct. Your KK just got a lot weaker. Now you lose to a correct draw and end up just a little more frustrated.

If this sounds like your experience, then maybe B&M is a better environment for you. The games are slower, the players tend to be weaker, plus you can vent to the player beside you.

However, be fair. Accusing sites of wrongdoing when any of the above could be true seems a little irrational. Agreed?

Wherever you end up playing, I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

HC

[Tom D]

You wrote: “What was found at Paradise Poker was that not only were the hole cards random, but board cards were random, and not only were they random, but thier distribution was perfectly even.”

You are wrong. I believe, as a courtesy to your readers, you should make some effort to learn a little about what you’re talking about. No tests have been done to determine if Paradise’s deal is random. Either you are ignorant of the difference between the concept of randomness and the concept of distribution, and foolishly pass along your ignorance to others, or you are not ignorant, and are trying to pass misinformation on to everyone foolish enough to believe you.

Either way, you do a great disservice to online poker.

Tom D

[Tom D]

How can you say you are not something, and then proceed to explain at length that you are what you claim not to be? The goons have propagated the “Conspiracy Theorist” label because it has such a derogatory connotation. It’s their only tool. Lorinda has already smeared you, trying to undermine your credibility from the start.

Be a man, say what you think, and don’t worry about what the ignorant call you.

Tom D

[SoBeDude]

You wrote: “What was found at Paradise Poker was that not only were the hole cards random, but board cards were random, and not only were they random, but thier distribution was perfectly even.”

You are wrong. I believe, as a courtesy to your readers, you should make some effort to learn a little about what you’re talking about. No tests have been done to determine if Paradise’s deal is random. Either you are ignorant of the difference between the concept of randomness and the concept of distribution, and foolishly pass along your ignorance to others, or you are not ignorant, and are trying to pass misinformation on to everyone foolish enough to believe you.

I believe that Price Waterhouse did audit their "shuffling" or randomization of their cards, and it passed with flying colors.

I didn't take anything he said as derogatory. I personally believe sites like paradise are on the up-and-up.

shame I'm getting hammered there this week...

-Scott

[Homer]

Yeah, he's obviously trying to pass along misinformation...lol

[sucka]

LOL. First off, I'm not a 'goon', I can assure you of that.

I honestly don't know if there is some weird stuff going on online. I'm just saying, be leery of it and for those people who say 'NO WAY!" - how the hell do they know? Because a site says we got Ernst & Young or someone to audits their shuffling algorithim. Big deal.

All I'm saying is - I really don't know. After putting some thought into it the last few days, it's safe to say that I certainly don't play my best poker online. Why? I don't really know. I think the more that I play I get better - but I guess I can't really tell until I spend more time playing online which is something that I'm still not real sure I want to do - at least not for higher stakes.

At the limits I'm playing now and the money I have online I'm really not overly concerned about the $$, I just wanted to get some hands in before I take a trip to Vegas next month.

Maybe in the 'long run' things would even out for me. But the short run is freaking me out. I logged on and played again today during my lunchbreak and while I actually posted a win for the session I witnessed some more really odd anomolies - the least of which was me getting pocket pairs 6 hands in a row (pocket 4's 3 times in a row). I'll footnote that I never flopped a set and lost (or folded) every hand. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway, like I said - maybe it's just me. Perhaps as someone mentioned - the fact that you see so many hands per hour overemphasizes the beats and weird hands. Who knows. I've played what would be the equivalent of 12 hours or so in B&M play and I've seen more wacky stuff in that period of time than I have in over 100 hours of B&M play.

Just for reference - here's how my session started today:

I'm waiting a few hands for the BB to come around - here are the first 4 flops before I get in...

1. 3 hearts come on the flop. Board pairs the turn - lots o' action...
2. Board double pairs and puts an A on the river
3. 3 to a straight come on the flop - board pairs on the turn - 3 clubs come with the river card
3 diamonds on the flop.

Finally, I get to post the BB - get red Tens on my first hand and call a raise with 5 players already in.

Flop comes AKJ with 2 spades.

I get bet into and fold. One dude shows AK and another dude shows AJ

Next hand I get A4c in the SB and call with 5 players. Flop comes with 2 4's and one club and one diamond.

Turn and river are runner-runner diamonds and I lose to QTd with a flush.

Next hand I get AJo on the button. 1 limper and I call as do the blinds.

Flop comes 9s 7s 3c

I get bet into and call - its heads up.

Jack comes on the turn completing the flush and an offsuit 4 comes on the river.

I get shown 34o and lose.

A few hands later I get a cheap play in the SB with JTh and nearly a family pot.

I fop a broadway and a guy runner-runner's 2 spades on me to make a shitty flush.

So, maybe it's just that I'm in card hell - or maybe some weird crap is going on, or maybe I'm just playing badly, or who knows.

Whatever it is - I still think playing online is a risky proposition.