PP $1/2 - Now I remember why I don't play online...

[sucka]

So, I buy in to the PP $1/2 game and I'm getting killed with a run of hole cards that I'd gladly take to the final table at the WSOP main event.

Anyway, here's a couple hands from later in the session - I forgot to grab hand histories from a couple others but these 2 pretty much say it all.

These 2 hands were about 5 apart and all the players so far seem pretty reasonable. Nothing strange has happened that would make me think anyone I'm in a hand with at this point is out of line. I'm playing my usual tight and aggressive game, but not having much luck...

Hand 1:

I'm UTG+4 with TdTc.

UTG +1 and +2 call and UTG +3 raises. I decide to bump it up here and knock the blinds out and get this thing shorthanded - hopefully 3 way or less.

All fold to the original raiser who calls. It's heads up.

*** FLOP *** : [ 8c 9c Js ]

Not a bad flop for me - could be worse... UTG checks, I bet and he calls.


*** TURN *** : [ 8c 9c Js ] [ Ac ]

Didn't really want to see the Ace, but I can't slow down now if he checks to me??

He checks, I bet, he calls.

*** RIVER *** : [ 8c 9c Js Ac ] [ 5c ]

I'm not sure what to think at this point. I'm not sure what the guy is on here - I'm hoping he missed his draw and that he doesn't have any clubs higher than my Tc.

He checks, I bet and he check-raises me.

At this point I'm sure he has a bigger flush than me but make a crying call.

Thoughts?

Hand 2:

Same table just a couple hands later...I'm on the button and get AdKd.

2 limpers to me and I raise.

The blinds call as do the 2 limpers. 4 to see the flop.

*** FLOP *** : [ Ac Kc Jd ]

Not bad for me. blinds check to the UTG player who bets. I call as does UTG. The more I think about this - I should have raised here. I'm not sure why I didn't though. I was sure I had the best hand at the time - but for sure should have raised it here...ugh.

*** TURN *** : [ Ac Kc Jd ] [ Qd ]

Why do I play this game? Can my opponents possibly have any better draws against me when I flop 2 pair with big slick.

I wanna see where I'm at here. BB checks, UTG bets and I raise. Both call. sheesh!!!

*** RIVER *** : [ Ac Kc Jd Qd ] [ 9h ]

BB checks, UTG bets, and I raise again here. Once again, not sure why - I guess I was just cranked that I had just played 2 hours and had been dealt starting hands we all dream about and hadn't won a single hand. I know I'm beat when they both call behind me...

Flame away!

[travisand]

Seems to me you played the first hand correctly except for the call at the end, which apparently you already knew was wrong.

The second hand you should have raised on the turn (which you already seem to know). The river raise was not a bad idea.

I don't believe that you are definitely beat on the river when they both call. Seems to me a person would be worried about a Ten, which if one of them held you surely would have gotten reraised being that the Ten is the nuts. If they both called their is a chance that your hand is still good or they are too dumb to raise even with the absolute nuts.

I suppose you could also have been beaten with trips but nobody raised before the flop besides you.

Sorry to hear about your run of luck with the dream cards. I just had a month of the same problem.

[pudley4]

I don't see anything wrong with hand 1. He probably had a higher club but you have to call.

Hand 2: I'd raise the flop. Raising the turn was very good. Raising the river was...terrible [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

[Homer]

Hand 1 - fold to river checkraise

Hand 2 - mmmm....tilty

-- Homer

[ZManODS]

Homer. You would fold to the check-raise, you are losing a lot doing this arent you? I think the better bet may have been to check down the river although the bet was a good move too. I guess it comes down to knowing youre oppenents.

[Zag]

I disagree with a lot of the advice, here.

First hand, I don't like the preflop raise. Tens might as well be sevens at $1/2. Your raise is going to end up 4 way, which is the worst choice for a middle pair. If you can't get heads up, go for the big multi-way odds by calling and play it like a small pair (i.e. no set, no bet). I think that even jacks are scary to play strong on these tables -- too many players with ace anything or KQ offsuit will call any number of bets.

I also disagree with the folks who said to fold to the check-raise. If you are going to do that, just check behind him and get a cheap showdown. I've seen plenty of PP $1/2 players who are so proud of their straight that they don't even see the four-flush on the board. So I agree with the bet and I also agree with the crying call. Remember that you expect to lose with this call most of the time (probably 4 out of 5), but still win money with it in the long run.

The second hand should have told you something important. It should have told you that you are on tilt and need to walk away. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

As you said, the missed raise on the flop was a huge mistake. But the raise on the river was an even bigger one. I am curious to know travisand's reasoning when he says that it was not a bad idea. Certainly, no one with a better hand than yours will lay it down, and there are not very many worse hands that will call.

It is vaguely possible that UTG is bluffing, here, though I doubt it. If you think he might be, then a call is warranted. A call (as opposed to a raise) might even keep in the BB with a worse hand than you have, where he might fold for two bets. Certainly, if his hand beats yours, he will call regardless. So the raise just costs you money, and never makes you any.

[Homer]

Yes, I would fold to a checkraise against all players except those who are very tricky (not many would checkraise the river with a club less than the ten) and those who are either maniacal or not at all good (think any flush is dominating).

No, I don't think I am losing money doing this. However, I am open to discussion.

-- Homer

[Homer]

You really think you will be good more than 20% of the time when calling the river checkraise on a four-flush board? I don't. I don't think you should call against most players.

Comments?

-- Homer

[Zag]

At $1/2 online poker, I totally think so. At a normal game, I agree with you. However, I also feel that if you are going to fold to a check-raise, you should not bet, you should just check it out.

[Homer]

I would still value bet the river even if I planned to fold to a checkraise. This is because there are many worse hands that will call on the river. Lower flushes, sets, straights, two-pair, etc will all call at this limit. Also, in most instances, an opponent would bet with a big flush fearing it would get checked through if they did not.

-- Homer