Thought this was a good SSHE type hand to ponder

CWsports · #1 01-30-2005, 10:59 AM

I thought this was a good Small Stakes Hold'em type hand to study where you have multiple draws and exactly how to total your outs. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, CO raises, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (12.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, CO folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

Isura · #2 01-30-2005, 11:22 AM

I think you can value bet the turn, since you will win often enough when you also spike an Ace on the river.

btspider · #3 01-30-2005, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can value bet the turn, since you will win often enough when you also spike an Ace on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

too likely CO will raise behind. keep your great relative position so you can check-raise your well hidden backdoor flush.

hmm... if you catch an Ace, is it best to bet? if you catch the 5, would you check-raise? any read on CO?

CWsports · #4 01-30-2005, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can value bet the turn, since you will win often enough when you also spike an Ace on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually thought about this as I knew I had about 14 outs to win the hand or a 30% chance. I needed 3 other callers in but I didn't want to bet and have CO raise and knock everyone out as I wouldn't get the 3 callers I would need to make it +EV.

CWsports · #5 01-30-2005, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you can value bet the turn, since you will win often enough when you also spike an Ace on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

too likely CO will raise behind. keep your great relative position so you can check-raise your well hidden backdoor flush.

hmm... if you catch an Ace, is it best to bet? if you catch the 5, would you check-raise? any read on CO?

[/ QUOTE ]

CO was 68% VPIP and 17% PFR with total aggression of around 5. Seeing that he was so aggressive I put him on two pair so if I hit an A or 5 I would have check raised there as well as he surely would have bet.

As Zehn · #6 01-30-2005, 12:55 PM

Please let me know if my reasoning is correct;

On the flop we have 5.5 outs, backdoor flush 1.5, remaining fives 2, and Ad & Ah for the other 2. This means our odds are 7.55 to 1 on the next card improving our hand. Pot odds prior to our ist flop bet are 8.5 to one, so we can call. Should I also have accounted for others to call on the initial flop bet?

Nick Royale · #7 01-30-2005, 01:12 PM

That depends on your reads. If the table is loose passive you can assume that there will come along more limpers and that it won't get raised. Don't take this idea to far though even if the table is loose/passive I wouldn't count on to many limpers since there's always a risk for a raise and that would cut your odds. If I don't have a specific reason to believe more limpers would come along I don't count any additional limpers.

GrunchCan · #8 01-30-2005, 01:41 PM

Calling on the flop can't be right.

You don't have the best hand right now. You are drawing to 2 seperate types of hands: one that will take out an entire field (the NFD), and one that will fare better against fewer opponents (the 2P/trips).

You have more outs to hit the hand that prefers fewer opponents, so you want to try to thin the field here. Raising protects your hand.

What's more, there are more cards in the deck that hurt your hand (9 or more) than help it(5 or fewer). In these situations, I like to raise to try to eliminate draws against me.

Since youv'e raised the flop, once the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes on the turn, you should bet. Nobody believes you have a flush.

tiltaholic · #9 01-30-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling on the flop can't be right.

You don't have the best hand right now. You are drawing to 2 seperate types of hands: one that will take out an entire field (the NFD), and one that will fare better against fewer opponents (the 2P/trips).

You have more outs to hit the hand that prefers fewer opponents, so you want to try to thin the field here. Raising protects your hand.

What's more, there are more cards in the deck that hurt your hand (9 or more) than help it(5 or fewer). In these situations, I like to raise to try to eliminate draws against me.

Since youv'e raised the flop, once the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes on the turn, you should bet. Nobody believes you have a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, except I think you mean "bet the river" not, "bet the turn"...