Some awful hands - plz help

[Atropos]

Hey folks,
I'm trying to learn limit 6-max play, have only played the 400$ NL 6-max games thus far, nearly no limit experience. Of course I read all the important threads in the excellent stickies here but still I seem to suck. Here are some hands, where I didnt know what to do. Plz post a short answer what your line would be.

<font color="blue"> Hand 1 </font>

Party Poker 5/10 Holdem (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB+BB fold

Flop: (4.80SB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls

Turn: (4.40BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls

River: (6.40BB) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls

Out of position I always get scared, probably a NL habit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Should I fold here somewhere, on turn, on river when the flush completes or are my pot odds to good?

<font color="blue"> Hand 2 </font>
Party Poker 5/10 Holdem (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, Button raises, Hero 3Bets,BB folds, Button calls

Flop: (8.40SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3Bets, Button calls

Turn: (7.20BB) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls

River: (11.20BB) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls

Button was a huge, very crazy, very aggressive FISH. I have no idea how to value overpair against him.

<font color="blue"> Hand 3 </font>

Party Poker 5/10 Holdem (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
1 folds,UTG+1 calls, Hero raises,3 folds,UTG+1 3Bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls

Flop: (8.80SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls

Turn: (5.40BB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 clals

River: (7.40BB) 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls

At the river the pot was huge, so I called with my A-high. On the other hand, I was the one who made the pot big, dont really like it.

<font color="blue"> Hand 4 </font>

Party Poker 5/10 Holdem (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds,CO calls,Button folds,Hero raises,BB folds,CO calls

Flop: (4.40SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3Bets, CO calls

Turn: (5.20BB) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets, CO calls

River: (7.20BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, CO checks

Is it better not to 3Bet the flop so that CO doesnt get into Calldown mode so soon? Reraising at the turn would have got more bets in. Is the river a value bet or rather a Bet/Fold situation than a check-call?

I would appreciate comments on the hands very much. It's possible that there are some note errors in these hands, I typed them all up myself without a converter and went insane after the 2nd one lol.

[spy587]

Hand 1- I fold the turn.
Hand 2- If he really is a huge fish, this is all read dependant. Would he do it with nothing? top pair?
Hand 3- I check the turn and call the river if I miss.
Hand 4- In this case, I call the flop and c/r the turn. Then I lead the river. To me it looks like CO prolly has nothing, but this is also read dependant.

In Limit HE the PT stats are very important.

Edit: Looking back, HAnd 4 3bet is far better. Need to find out where you are.

[jba]

hand 1 - I 3bet the flop a lot if I think he's FOS, the way you played it isn't bad if you think he's the kind of guy to just bet a big ace all the way

hand 2 - cool

hand 3 - well the LRR is always perplexing to me, but I cap preflop all day. the river bet is just weird, i really don't know about calling that. i'd really like a read on that one.

hand 4 - i would bet fold the river. 3bet flop is a must IMO.

Hand 1 depends on your read - will villain raise for a free card? If so, try the stop and go. If he raises you again on the turn you can dump it. The way it was played, I'm not sure what you're beating on the river besides A high. Have you seen him bet A high on the river before?

Hand 2 is good. Resist the temptation to get tricky and go for the turn check/raise, villain might check behind on the turn.

Hand 3 I really think you should check behind on the turn. If you get c/red here, you won't be able to fold. I think the phrase here is "check behind with outs". If you check behind, you can raise a river bet if you hit your flush, and you can call a bet in pretty much every other case.

Hand 4, I'm terrible at river value betting, but I think you can bet/fold here. A 9 is a likely enough holding for CO, and he'll probably call. Again, I prefer the 3-bet on the flop OOP. You don't know whether you'll be able to put in a raise on the turn.

Hi Atropos-

Not much limit experience, huh? Well, starting at 5/10 is a good way to get plowed under but I suppose the competition is a lot better so you learn faster. Hope it's going well for you so far.

Anyway, the hands:

Hand 1: I think you should bet the turn here. His flop raise is as likely a flush draw or mid pocket pair as it is a queen or three (he probably waits until the turn to pop a 3 if he's that aggressive.) You don't want to give him a free card if he's on the flush draw, so bet the turn [[The only problem with this line is if he is super aggressive, he'll raise the turn again just with a flush draw. Against that sort of player you should just call down.] I really don't know about that river ... now you're only beating 55-77 plus weird hands like AJ os. I might fold it but I don't blame you much for check calling.

Hand 2 is well played. I do the same, especially given your read.

Hand 3: Without a read you should fold this river UI, unless you know villain to be a player who donks safe rivers. How could he possibly think you'd be bluffed, though? You've been betting all the way and betting when there was a 3-flush out there. I think you should fold this.

Hand 4 was well played. You absolutely do not want to give him a free card on the turn if he's on the flush draw or has an ace. Three betting and betting the turn is the best way to get him to call down his pair of 9s out of suspicion. If you had a read on this player you could bet fold the river but I don't mind check/calling against an unknown. Bet/calling is total spew with the ace and the flush completion, though, not to mention the random idiots who wait until the river to go aggro with their trips (weird, I know, but there's plenty who do it.)

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1- I fold the turn.
Hand 2- If he really is a huge fish, this is all read dependant. Would he do it with nothing? top pair?
Hand 3- I check the turn and call the river if I miss.
Hand 4- In this case, I call the flop and c/r the turn. Then I lead the river. To me it looks like CO prolly has nothing, but this is also read dependant.

In Limit HE the PT stats are very important.

Edit: Looking back, HAnd 4 3bet is far better. Need to find out where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Spy-

There's too much stuff we're ahead of to fold the turn in hand 1 in my opinion, though I have no problem with a river fold. What do you put villain on?
Do you disagree with the OP's line in hand 2? How would you play against an agro player on this board?

In hand 3, why do you (and others) think we should check through on the turn? We've got overs, our opponent could have thin air and we already showed plenty of aggression PF and on the flop. I'm just not worried about getting c/r here and if we are, we have great odds to draw out. Bet the turn and give villain a chance to fold.
In hand 4, I see you amended your opinion :-) We need to 3-bet this and lead the flop b/c free cards suck. You're right, leading the river is better than check/calling.

[Peter Harris]

hand 1:
w/o reads, i would 3bet the flop and bet-fold the turn.
if villain is LAGgy, i c/c down and expect to see A-hi or 22,55-77 as often as i see a Q.

hand 2:
if villain is very aggressive here, you are probably ahead of AK, AQ, AT, the flush draw etc. as often as you are behind to an A8 steal, or AA-QQ.
I may 3-bet the turn and consider an action if capped. If i don't 3bet the turn, i think call turn and c/c river is goot.

hand 3:
i'd call the river, you may be chopping with AK here lolol. Nah, really, the other streets are fine, and getting 8.x-1 i would probably call the river. note the LRR and see what the hell it was. If it were AA or KK i'd probably c/r the turn.

hand 4:
i think c/c the river is fine, i would vomit a little if i bet the A flush-completing river and got raised.

Nice handle, i wonder if clotho and lachesis will drop in to offer advice.

hand 4: a 3-bet on this flop is just fine. He needs to pay dearly with his draw/overcards/mid-PP. As for the river, I think a check/call is good as I see a lot of villains bluffing this scarecard. This will make up for the times they had a mid-PP. I guess there's a case for betting, but getting raised would suck in this pot.

[Atropos]

Hey folks,
thx for all your thoughtful responses, they really helped me.
Here is what seems to be the general consensus about the hands:

Hand 1:
It's possible to Call the Flop raise and then donkbet the turn, because Villain could be on a Flushdraw and wants to get a free card. I did not think about this because the board is paired and I could easily have him drawing dead, but since this is party...
I like Peter Harris' line best: 3bet Flop, Bet/fold turn, this way I never fold the best hand and dont give draws good odds.

RESULTS: Button shows A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and takes it down

Maybe I should have included that Button was a very aggressive player, but only 21 VPIP 7 PFR [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hand 2:
Nearly everyone agreed it was played fine against a fish, and I agree too.
RESULTS: He shows J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and we split the pot. Bad luck I guess because he was a 46 VPIP 17 PFR and overall fishy.

Hand 3:
Most thought the River call was very thin, and that was and is my oppinion too. However I dont agree on checking behind on the turn. This depends very much on his Limp_Reraise Preflop hand range, but against AKo I would be freerolling and want to get bets in. Against nearly all other hands except a Flush I still have odds to draw, though it's obviously less EV this way. However my opponent was a 50 VPIP 18 PFR fish, should have included that earlier, didnt because I dont have many hands on them, never mind.

RESULTS: He shows 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the rivered straight and I'm of course very happy how I played this hand. Maybe a bit result-oriented?

Hand 4:
Only difficult spot is the river it seems. However there is this saying, that the most marginal spots matter less than one thinks, as the EV of the decisions is very close.

RESULTS: He shows J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and MHIG. Maybe he would have called a river bet, maybe not, I think it doesnt make much difference.
Opponent was 34 VPIP 15 PFR for the record.

All in all Limit seems to be a very difficult game to learn with many tough decisions. However I think it will be fun and stick with it for a while [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thx for your responses
-Toby