K8s UTG

fsuplayer · #1 10-26-2005, 10:56 PM

im trying to break my streak of posting uninteresting hands, so this is my latest attempt. another 2+2er disagreed with the action I took.

a hand from a while ago, when eurobet was party, and party was, well, still party.

4 handed 10-20NL.

I am running well and completely running over the game.
I have reraised a handful of times pf and havent been called yet. I am also stealing alot after raising pf.

im waiting for one of them to take a stand, and hoping ill wake up with a good hand when they do.

so....
BB has 2300 and I cover. he has stats of 27/15/2, with some of that SH'd. he seems pretty TAG, and is on another of my tables, but we havent tangled much yet.

i raise UTG to 80 with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. button and SB fold. bb calls.

flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet 150 after he checks. he calls fairly quick.

turn (470): K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he checks again and I bet 380.

he CR's to 950.

thoughts on hand ranges and suggested action?

thanks,

fsuplayer

FoxwoodsFiend · #2 10-26-2005, 11:05 PM

I almost never bet this turn. I don't think many worse hands call here out of position on a 3-spade board letting a 4th spade fall and having to fold isn't a sufficient reason to open yourself up to a check-raise. Basically, I think that this is a pot-control issue.

KaneKungFu123 · #3 10-26-2005, 11:31 PM

two pair
straight
flush
he thinks your bluffing that scary card and wants to take it away - but why raise so much, plus you have aggro image?

without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

Rocaix · #4 10-26-2005, 11:34 PM

Hand range: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Kx, A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6x, A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7, A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 67, 23(trying to represent spades), Kings Up, made flush.

Set or smaller 2-pair probably jams on the flop, so they seem less likely.

I'd check the turn behind, simply because I don't think too many worse hands will call that turn. But many will raise it, and put you in a tough spot.

Given your line, I think a case can be made for folding, calling or pushing. It's one of those I have to be at the table type things to get a good feel as to what decision to make.

mikech · #5 10-26-2005, 11:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

KaneKungFu123 · #6 10-26-2005, 11:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt check behind bcause i dont want to lose to 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

mikech · #7 10-26-2005, 11:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt check behind bcause i dont want to lose to 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
ok. but my question wasn't whether to check behind or to bet, it was why an underbet rather than a strong bet? you'll get c/r'ed more often, i would think. are you more likely to call the c/r if it comes?

Rocaix · #8 10-26-2005, 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt check behind bcause i dont want to lose to 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the negatives of giving a small spade a free card really outweigh the times we get check-raised off the best hand. I don't think worse hands call here very often (at least the size of that bet), but will frequently check-raise. It just boils down to an issue of pot control vs giving a free card here.

fsuplayer · #9 10-27-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt check behind bcause i dont want to lose to 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
ok. but my question wasn't whether to check behind or to bet, it was why an underbet rather than a strong bet? you'll get c/r'ed more often, i would think. are you more likely to call the c/r if it comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

kane-

i know sometimes you want to underbet, like with a set on a flush board, so that if you are CR'd, its cheaper to call. another benefit is that they will call you with lesser holdings.

but im not sure of the reason for the turn underbet here kane. surely you cant be thinking of calling the CR hoping to improve?

BluffTHIS! · #10 10-27-2005, 01:41 AM

That K was good for your hand but might have been better for him, and you have outs to improve. Your bet just allowed him to either run you off or make a bad call believing that was all he was doing when he wasn't. If you check and improve then you get to bust him sometimes, and if another spade comes he might not like it either if he had flopped a straight or set, so you can often either get a cheap showdown if you want or bluff him off the winner. Taking the risk of a hand outdrawing you like KKF was talking about doesn't outweigh the other factors that argue for checking behind. And if he does make a 3 high flush he probably isn't calling any meaningful bluff by you on the river if he checks. By allowing yourself to be checkraised you wasted your position and got turned into the guesser.