checking behind with the nut flush draw

[fsuplayer]

this comes from the diablo J9 turned straight thread.

i have never heard of doing this and thus have never used the play (unless i was the pf raiser and turned TPTK or a nut flush draw, and dont want to get CR'd huge.)


so when and why do you guys use it?

give some examples if you can.

my thinking has always been a) i wouldnt mind winning the pot right now, b) other flush draws will still call c) id like to build up the pot, so I can put in some big money if i hit


thanks,

fsuplayer

[kagame]

i guess it would make sense against habitual check raisers

i think i like it alot more with non-nut flush draws, which i personally have lost alot of money with in the past

[snappo]

Well in Ciaffone's book, he talks about this concept. I'll quote him here. He's talking about calling vs. raising with a draw but I think you can easily apply it to checking vs. betting.

[ QUOTE ]

I am much more likely to prefer a raise [bet] to a call [check] when I have a good drawing hand, but am not hitting to the nuts. When my non-nut draw is a pair and flush-draw or a straight-draw and flush-draw, I can never be sure the flush is good when it comes.


[/ QUOTE ]

[BobboFitos]

i do it alot - when the pot is small, and i really dont want to get c/r off a nice draw.

like... if i was to overlimp A4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] behind one person, blinds check, flop is T 7 2 w/ 2 spades.

sure if checked to you, you can probably pick it up, but if you're c/red you're forced to either fold or pay too much, or if priced in, you call but your hand isn't too well disguised. but if you check it back and another spade hits, you set up a big pot vs a weaker flush (esp if you're aggro and they figure you would've bet a flush draw when checked to)

you can still pick up the pot, too, on 4th if no one improves.

edit to fix the spades -> spade

[GFunk911]

The more likely you are to have clean outs besides a flsuh to weak hands, the more inclined you should be to check. This allows you to stay in the hand, plus keeps the pot small when you have the potential to make a weak hand, both good. If you bet and are called, your weak outs are much less likely to be good, sorta a Schrodinger's situation, i.e. they only exists if you don't find out.

[Jonny]

fsu,

Are you referring to checking behind on the flop or the turn?

[KaneKungFu123]

i dont know why everyone is insisting it has to be the nut draw and not just a flush draw.

[thabadguy]

I think its because with a nut draw if you bet, you might scare out a smaller flush draw which would have big implied odds if you hit.
Similarly if you bet/raise with a smaller draw you might be successful in getting out higher flush draws.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]

i think i like it alot more with non-nut flush draws, which i personally have lost alot of money with in the past

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you mean the opposite? You want to check behind with the nut draw, but raise with the non-nut draw because you want a fold?

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont know why everyone is insisting it has to be the nut draw and not just a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking behind with the nut flush draw allows you to hit an A and keep the pot small. If you raise the flop, get called and an A hits on the turn, you end up with a tough decision if there is significant turn betting and all you have is TPNK (say with A4s). With a lower flush draw, you don't really want to keep other flush draws in the hand (though you do want to keep straight draws in perhaps), plus you have no real way of winning the hand if it goes to showdown besides making your flush, in which case you want to play a big pot, so you may as well pump it up now.

Hopefully that makes some sense and I'm not just talking out of my ass.