5000 Posts and Still Donking

Shillx · #1 05-04-2005, 03:35 PM

It has been fun people. Now it is time to see what I have learned.

Most of the hands I play have some betting here, some raising there and tons of folding. Not very interesting but I'll do my best. I even decided to try something new and play a hand that isn't named Pocket Aces.[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

The lady in this hand is very aggressive, and she has raised every pot she has played. I don't have any numbers per se, but I have been keeping my eye on her and she is TAG with added emphesis on the AG. A few hands ago I openpopped AJ UTG and she 3-bet TT from MP and I check/called her down on a AQT board (she actually checked behind on a 4 flush river so she can turn it down). Clark's didn't apply to that hand imo eventhough the river was 4 flushed. I was almost surely losing and I was almost surely going to get called.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero...?

Different session. This guy is pretty TAG (12/6/2+) and we haven't mixed it up much over 250 hands. He is a bit on the weak side as he won't raise AJs/ATs/KQo preflop and what not. He will made some iffy colddonks as well but he loves to play hands fast if he has it. I would rather not have him at my table, but I *think* he knows what I'm trying to do at the table, anyway...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero...?

Am I playing these correctly on the 3rd and 4th or am I the 22 year old Gerber Baby? Also, what would you do on the river in both of these hands...if this is how you managed to get there.

Always appreciated.

Brad

jrz1972 · #2 05-04-2005, 03:40 PM

Against TAGs, I would tend to go for a check-raise on both of these. (I would bet myself against a passive player who might predictably check behind on the river, but then I would have been betting earlier streets also so the whole hand would have played differently).

I will also add that I don't get the UTG open-raise with KJo.

numeri · #3 05-04-2005, 03:42 PM

I like the check/call - check/call - bet line. I might be tempted to c/r the river on the 2nd because she isn't on a flush draw with AQs. By that, I mean if she has AA she'll bet the river again, whereas there are weaker hands that may not fire again on the river in the 1st hand.

I'm afraid I have little or no understanding of these hands, so I'll be interested in some responses from good players. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Oh, and 5000 is too small a sample size to determine your true donkishness. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

scotty34 · #4 05-04-2005, 03:44 PM

On your first hand, I think the PF raise with KJo UTG is pretty marginal. I know you like to be very aggressive though, so I'll trust your judgement of the game conditions.

After the flop comes, both hands play pretty much identical. You have to either C/R the turn here, or lead the river. Villain will check behind far too many times to attempt a C/R on the river. This is especially true if Villain recognizes you as a solid player - Villain will only bet an A or K and will check behind with TT-QQ (some may even do this with an A). Villain knows you are not calling down with nothing, and should know that you have an A or K yourself.

Personally, I like the C/R on the turn, as it has the possibility of collecting an extra bet. However, this is getting to the level where a solid player may fold to a turn C/R. I still think this is the move with the most value though.

jrz1972 · #5 05-04-2005, 03:46 PM

You think most TAGs check behind more than half the time? I don't.

jrz1972 · #6 05-04-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the check/call - check/call - bet line.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/c-c/c-b is a WA/WB line. That doesn't apply to either of these hands because you are very likely to be WA and very unlikely to be WB.

car ramrod · #7 05-04-2005, 03:50 PM

I think I have to raise the turn in hand 1.
She could easily have AQ, QQ, JJ, TT. You did say she raises a lot. I would raise the turn and see hows she plays it from there.

Hand 2 I may fear we're behind. But I would still have to throw a raise in there some where, maybe thats spewing? I like to raise the flop, we may get some info from him. I would rather him 3 bet the flop then the turn.
Then again according to your read, he has AK or AA more often, so maybe the same line you took, check call river.(that feels so weak tight) but I don't want to get raised, either way I want to show down.

droolie · #8 05-04-2005, 03:54 PM

Hand 1: Her range of 3-betting hands is pretty big here. I'm betting the river and calling a raise. She might have an AK but it's unlikely as the K would be the case. She might have AA in which case we pay her off. It's much more likely she's trying to drive us away with TT-QQ and will take the free showdown if we let her. If she is value betting AQs or AJs she'll call the river bet.
I think a good argument can be made for check-raising but I don't do it because AA or AK are likely enough that I don't want to pay three bets to see this showdown and I can fold this river.

Hand 2:
I check raise. I like our chances at showdown here very much and I think he's just value betting AA or QQ and the likelihood of him checking behind is very low. He's probably not three betting AK pf and given the 3 K's already out this is even more unlikley. If he has JJ I'll pay him off.

scotty34 · #9 05-04-2005, 03:56 PM

I edited my post. I think that they may check behind quite often if they are a solid thinking player. This would imply that villain recognizes you as a TAG/solid player as well. They will realize that you are not check-calling with nothing. They should know that you have either an A with a J+ kicker, or a K. You would have folded TT-QQ on the flop or turn, as you are not really beating anything that Villain would 3-bet except TT and JJ.

Villain will check behind almost always if they have TT-QQ. Villain will obviously bet a AK or AA, in which case we are losing anyways. Villain will bet an AQs some of the time, and check it others. I think that covers the range of 3-betting hands for most TAGs. Solid players realize that value betting is designed for playing against Loose-Passive players that call down with any piece of the board, not other TAGs.

numeri · #10 05-04-2005, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the check/call - check/call - bet line.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/c-c/c-b is a WA/WB line. That doesn't apply to either of these hands because you are very likely to be WA and very unlikely to be WB.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure? Aren't AA and AK possibilities? It's very likely that I just have a nasty case of MUBS, but I wonder how often QQ-TT bet to the river on the 1st hand. On the 2nd, it seems like more pre-flop 3-betting hands that we beat will continue to bet.

I guess it just seemed like a WA/WB situation. In the first we're behind AA, AK and KQ, and ahead of QQ-TT and AQ. In the 2nd, we're behind AK only, so I guess it's not really WA/WB. I do feel that AA and QQ would fire again on the river in the 2nd.