Some interesting spots

[Elbie]

Hand 1 I would fold 100% of the time. The implied odds are of course enormous but you have to hit your set on the flop to be able to continue. I wouldn't wanna pay an additional 3 big bets to find out.

Hand 2 is tougher (especially without a read) but I can' t see Villains check on the turn as a sign of him being afraid that you hit the trips. An attempt to set you up for a checkraise with AA, KK, QQ, JJ? Maybe but I would think that most of the time you will see a bet with those holdings. So against an unknown I would bet the turn an fold if he checkraises.

[adsman]

Responding blind....

Hand 1 I call.

Hand 2, I'm assuming that this is a WA/WB situation. In this hand we have position. I think that there could be two ways to play this considering that our opponent checked the Turn. We could bet the turn and bet the River. Or we could check behind on the Turn and then bet/raise the river.

I'm still coming to grips with these situations though, so this is most probably flawed in some deep and meaningful way.

[ArturiusX]

Hand 2: I like the check on the turn, raise on the river when you're bet into.

[adsman]

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Hand 2: I like the check on the turn, raise on the river when you're bet into.

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Thinking about it further, I think that I would check the Turn and just call the bet on the River.

[DeathDonkey]

Hand 2: Bet and type "Reverse dominated like your mother".

-DeathDonkey

[i wanna be me]

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a call isnt bad especially with a hand that will play itself post flop

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To some extent it will. But we could get tied to the pot chasing a set (or gutshot, on a coordinated board). Also, the chances of flopping a set and losing to a better one increase with this preflop action.

Also, when this much money goes in preflop, that cuts into our implied odds, especially since we could catch a set and still lose.

But if we do flop a set, we can expect a lot of action, since our opponents apparently have great hands. So I don't think calling is so bad, though I would fold.

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exactly my feelings - when you flop a set and lose (1/4 of the time) you're gonna lose a monster pot.

[yellowjack]

Hand 1 is a clear fold. 3 bets to you hoping to hit a set, in a 4 way pot.

Hand 2 I check behind on the turn. This is to prevent a checkraise from an overpair, and induce a bluff on the river w/ overcards. On the river, it's an easy bet-call situation for any card, including a queen or king. I'm assuming there's a chance villain may bluff these cards. Raising on the river isn't viable because he'll just fold his overcard bluff to your raise and call or maybe 3-bet you if he has a good hand/read, leaving you in dire straits.

[Shillx]

My thoughts are in white.

# 1 -<font color="white"> Hand one is a clear call. Everytime I don't flop a set I have to pay 3 SB, so everytime I do flop one I need to win 22.5 SB. Since other people are already putting in 13 SB, I only need to win 9.5 SB or 4.75 BB everytime I flop a set. In this hand I actually did flop a set and won roughly 13 BB. So even if I win 75% of the time I flop a set, I need to collect like 6.5 BB after the flop. This is very do able.</font>

# 2 -<font color="white">I really like a check in hand 2. If I have him beat, it is likely to just 3 outs, and he might bet AK on the river after I check behind (if he checks again I will surely bet). If you were the SB, this is the perfect time to go for a check raise with a hand like AA or KK. With the bottom card pairing, it gives anyone with 9x just 2 outs. Anyway I did bet and he check/raised me. I called because I might have 5 outs and the river bricked (it was a two) and I called. He had AA and MHING. Lesson learned as checking in this spot isn't a bad idea (with the intention of calling a river bet). FWIW he ended up being a 26/14 after 30 hands and if I knew that I would have checked for sure. </font>

Brad

[Nick C]

Shill,

Your analysis is good, but in my opinion you're giving the average 2/4 player too much credit in #2. I don't think your opponent will both have an overpair and decide it's a great checkraising opportunity all that often. I mean, he's got to have exactly AA to confidently figure that, because the board paired, you have just two outs.

Then again, I think most 2/4 players will fire again with overcards. Most of my opponents don't seem to give up the initiative very often, and I'm not sure what to think when they do.

I don't think the decision in #1 is so clear, but I don't have a strong opinion about it either.

Edit: I'm not actually sure that Villain's turn checkraise in Hand 2 is such a great play. Against you, maybe it is, but you're an unknown to him just like he is to you, I'm assuming. I think often our unknown Hero is going to have overcards or even QJ, QT, or JT and take the free card, when he would have called a turn bet with 0-8 outs (granted, the average will be closer to zero). Maybe the unknown Hero will then call on the river unimproved out of curiosity if he has an ace (but there are only two left), and maybe he'll even raise if he catches two pair, but sometimes he'll just fold to a river bet, and on occasion he'll actually improve to a straight or trips and win.

[toss]

Alright, alright I just thought both hands through again. For your reasoning in Hand 1 Shill, doesn't that mean you would cold-call a cap would any pair? How do you know the inital raiser or even the 3-better will call the cap after you do? And if you're sure they'll call, teach me how to table select like you do.

Hand 2 I really like your thinking. At first I was like easy bet, lalala, I'm multitabling. But after you commented on how there could be a better line I thought about it more thoroughly. If you're not going to bet, then you would check behind and hope he bets the river with overcards. Villain right now most likely has only 3 outs left and it won't be a disaster to give him a free card. If we bet the turn villain folds with his weak draw or checkraises with a better hand which leaves us all dazed and disoriented. But if we check behind we can induce a bluff or let him catch an ace AND at the same time save bets against a premium hand. So clear now. Whew.