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  #21  
Old 12-19-2005, 11:51 PM
CJC CJC is offline
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Default I have an issue...

Hi,

My only problem with the way you played this hand is the last sentence in your post.

" [ QUOTE ]
Villain just joined the table a few orbits ago and isnt anyone I've ever played with or seen in this game.

[/ QUOTE ] "

4th was fine, but given the description of your post I can't see continuing on 5th. Now if you were playing the $20-40 game I was in at Foxwoods on Sunday, then the way you played the hand would be fine... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Best,

CJ
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  #22  
Old 12-19-2005, 11:58 PM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Getting aggressive

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure what I think yet, but hopefully he doesn't hit a five in the next two streets. If it doesn't then maybe you have a shot at convincing him you are rolled. In a short handed game like this I would pop you back on fourth if I had the aces, so I don't think he has them.

I have playing on line for about year so now, and I definitely think there is a place for naked aggression at times. Otherwise, you are just too predictable. You have to break the "rules" sometime. Stuff like this has to keep even solid opponents off balance, which will pay off later. Off balance = mistakes. The trick is to not go overboard, and get people calling you at the wrong times. If part of the play here is for the meta game, then keep blasting I say. If you ease up even a little, many players will sense weakness and come after you hard. I wouldn't feel the same way if you were a newbie, as opposed to a solid stud player with a lot of experience under your belt.

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem with this is that you can always justify a play with the "metagame". I don't think mike was really playing this way for metagame purposes.
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  #23  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:47 AM
Michael Emery Michael Emery is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Getting aggressive

[ QUOTE ]
With all due respect, what's the point here? You started off your post by defending what you knew the response would be. You know it's -EV, at least by the book. If you feel like for you it's +EV because you get a "better image" or you know how to "handle situations where I've put myself in jeopardy" then go for it.

If you're going to play this way, then go for it. But again, why are you posting this hand? And when you get the inevitable response, why are you so defensive?



[/ QUOTE ]

The point of this hand was to generate discussion. I dont generally post hands that are strait forward and mundane. No one, including myself, learns from them. You really need to take a chill pill, man. The opening of my post was simply poking fun at a few players I know and have posted with on this forum for along time. They all typically play tighter than me and I was only joking around with this fact, not being defensive of the play I made. And whats to say this is -EV by the book? Where in the text do you see a hand example like the one I posted? I think you should have more posts than 83, and even more credentials on top of that if you wish to question a hand that I post. To better players I think this hand is very interesting and definitely worth me posting.

Mike Emery
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  #24  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:25 AM
Michael Emery Michael Emery is offline
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Default Results and my thoughts of the hand.....

So I've read all the replys and finally got what I was looking for in lane mcbrides response. In fact, they wrote almost my exact thoughts that occured as I was playing the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
4 handed, I don't hate it at all. I think you are most likely ahead unless he is a tricky player. you really aren't losing to many hands unless he limped with aces or a concealed pair. the only thing I'm afraid of is a third four (which I don't think he had).

I would say most likely he limped with ace high maybe akx or aj10 or something... and bet fourth as a "delayed steal"
on fifth when he pairs, I give him credit for a pair of fours and that's about it, I think it is just another attempt to continue his steal since he caught a little something. I think your fives are most likely ahead, but I tend to get a little aggressive short-handed, so perhaps take it for what it's worth.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll add more. What is everyone so worried about here? We have a new player who joins the game and is not a regular. He limps (based on these two things right here I would say more often than not hes a weak player) and has an automatic bet on fourth street against me, the bring-in, with his ace high.

So he bets and I raise, he just calls. Notice that this opponent would have to be very tricky to play a hand like split aces (or the like) on third like this. He would not only have to limp, but smooth call my fourth street raise as well. I think this is unlikely. In fact, I'm betting 7 out of 8 times here that he has an unpaired hand. Some people advocated that while they didnt mind my raise they liked a possible call instead. How do you play fifth then? If you both blank and he fires again are you calling or folding? What info have you found out about his hand? Part of my reason for raising here was to probe what I was up against. If I got three-bet I was simply mucking. Calling here just dosent get you anywhere and makes the hand hard to play on fifth and possibly later.

So after he calls my fourth street raise he leads out on fifth when he makes open fours. Of course he does! He will usually always be betting here whether he has just the open fours, or if I have read him wrong and he has better. Judging from his third and fourth street actions I still think its far more likely I'm ahead. So now the question becomes what to do.

The final result of this hand is that my opponent thought and folded when I raised him on fifth after he bet. I fully realize that many opponents will simply not even fold their lone open fours here in the same situation. However, the fact that I had assigned myself as still being ahead, plus the fact that he might very well fold his open fours on fifth (which is hugely to my benefit), made a raise correct in my mind. I also realize that this whole play is risky and sometimes I will look like a Laggish dolt when I run into something. Be that as it may though, I still like my line given the circumstances. Not saying its right, just that I like it. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I'd feel the same even if it backfired.

[ QUOTE ]
Mike will not get people to stop playing ABC poker because it is too easy to beat small games playing ABC.

But as you move up in limits and play in tougher games, plays like this one are important to add to one's arsenal. Otherwise, you will constantly wonder why people are always folding when you have the nuts.


[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to reiterate what blumpkin said above and what I talked about in an earlier post regarding this benefit. Essentially, metagame purposes for occasionaly making this type of play add on more than you might think when you are against observant opponents.

Mike Emery
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  #25  
Old 12-20-2005, 09:45 AM
Jeffage Jeffage is offline
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Default Re: 20/40 Getting aggressive

4th= Reasonable
5th= Obviously a standard fold, but you think he's just on three biggies and is betting his board? So, then the play is to raise. But if you do this, don't puss out - you must bet 6th street and plan to check behind on 7th w/o improvement.

Jeff
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  #26  
Old 12-20-2005, 11:12 AM
jon_1van jon_1van is offline
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Location: Silver Spring MD
Posts: 53
Default Re: Results and my thoughts of the hand.....

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to reiterate what blumpkin said above and what I talked about in an earlier post regarding this benefit. Essentially, metagame purposes for occasionaly making this type of play add on more than you might think when you are against observant opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously you have to have observant opponents for this.

Anyway, I was hoping he called your 5th street bet and bet out into you on 6th. (And hopefully you get a 2nd pair like 7s) That would have made the hand more fun.
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  #27  
Old 12-20-2005, 12:07 PM
frappeboy frappeboy is offline
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Default Re: Results and my thoughts of the hand.....

This is classic "Donator" thinking. Thank you for keeping food on my table.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].. Seriously though I like 4th street. Shorthanded you can't let people push you around. There is a line in 7CS4AP that says something like "Sometimes you need to splash the pot around against aggressive players to stop them from getting value with their semi bluffs". This could be one of those situations.

5th street is definitely either fold or raise. Calling is really terrible. I only learned 1 thing from the Barry Greenstein book "Ace on the River", and that's you're better off attempting to make the right play rather than settling on something in between. In this hand either you are ahead or way behind. When you are ahead you can't let your opponent get a shot at catching one of his overcards and beating you. When you're behind it's better off finding out now than later.

Personally I still think I would fold 5th street, but then again im the biggest wuss on partypoker. I guess I'll end this post with a quote from rounders:

"You can't make what you don't put in the middle"
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  #28  
Old 12-20-2005, 11:06 PM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default Re: Results and my thoughts of the hand.....

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, metagame purposes for occasionaly making this type of play add on more than you might think when you are against observant opponents.

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]


Mike, I assume you are validating part of this play with its metagame value.. Did you show your opponent your hand?
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  #29  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:08 AM
CarlosChadha CarlosChadha is offline
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Default My thoughts

I basically agree with the analysis that Mike gave, so this will be short. Whenever I see someone open limp short handed with the high card up I feel like the player is whispering in my ear: "I don't know how to play shorthanded stud, take my money". Either they are risking getting no value by slowplaying, or they are failing to make an easy ante steal with a weak hand. His play is pretty consistent with the later, as Mike pointed out in his post.

I don't agree with what Jeffage said about betting 6th again if you get called and then checking the river. Since Mike is representing a strong hand with the 5th st. raise (like Ts up) the opponent calling on 5th should be scary since the chances of him having just 4s go down with the call (because he will fold just 4s a good amount of the time). So, you might be against 2 pair on 5th.

If he catches a paint on 6th it has a high probablity of having paired him and there is a good chance you will get check raised on 6th. If it doesn't pair him you are only slightly ahead so giving a free card is not bad, plus it might induce him to bluff the river unimproved.

Another possible hand he could have is 4 cards to a wheel with 4s, so if he catches any wheel card you could be behind (or way behind if he hit his str8), so again you should take the free card.

In conclusion, the only time I'd bet 6th is if the opponent catches a middle card because that it is unlikely to pair him.
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  #30  
Old 12-22-2005, 05:50 AM
Michael Emery Michael Emery is offline
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Default Re: My thoughts

Carlos,

I really appreciate your thoughts in this post due to the fact that you have to be the expert shorthanded stud player on 2+2 if there is one. I guess its a good thing I agree with what you said.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with what Jeffage said about betting 6th again if you get called and then checking the river. Since Mike is representing a strong hand with the 5th st. raise (like Ts up) the opponent calling on 5th should be scary since the chances of him having just 4s go down with the call (because he will fold just 4s a good amount of the time). So, you might be against 2 pair on 5th.

If he catches a paint on 6th it has a high probablity of having paired him and there is a good chance you will get check raised on 6th. If it doesn't pair him you are only slightly ahead so giving a free card is not bad, plus it might induce him to bluff the river unimproved.


[/ QUOTE ]

Betting any non-paint card was my exact plan for sixth street. Of course this makes total sense seeing how I'm going with my read that he just limped with high cards. Jeffage wrote a quick response but I'm pretty sure he wasnt betting into any paint if checked to on sixth.

You also brought up a valid point about being behind on fifth if called. I actually would be worried in a tough game, perhaps the shorthanded 30-60 you play in on stars, but in this game I think I dont have as much to fear. Thnaks again for the analysis, Carlos. It helps to know what you think about this hand.

Mike Emery
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