Where should I stop betting?

GTSamIAm · #1 10-05-2005, 09:59 AM

This is from a live tourney last night. Blinds are 100/200. I have about 4000. I don't remember how much anyone else has except the button who I have covered by about 1500.

UTG folds to me. I'm dealt AJo. The two players to the left of me have been tight and passive. The person on the button is a friend of mine who can be a true maniac or can play loose/passive. He has been known to tighten up occasionally too. He's dynamic, but he's not a strong player. The blinds are generally pretty tight.

I raise to 600, button cold calls, blinds fold.
Flop is A83 rainbow. I bet 400, button raises to 1000, I call.
Turn is Q of clubs, there was already one club. I bet 700, he calls.
River is 6 of clubs, three on the board. Button has about 1500 left. I bet 700 as a stopper bet, he calls.

What's a better plan after I'm raised on the flop?

jcm4ccc · #2 10-05-2005, 10:12 AM

Well, the flop bet was a huge mistake, I think, and affects everything else. You bet 400 into a 1500 pot. This is such a weak bet that it is hard to know what the button has. He may have AT or A9, and figures from your weak bet that you missed the flop entirely. Or he could have you dominated. You just don't know, and with AJ you really want to know.

So, if I were you, I would fold to the the reraise on the flop and curse myself for making a terrible bet. Next time, bet over 50% of the pot, something that shows you are serious about the hand. Then you can be pretty certain that a reraise means you are beat.

AJo is a bitch to play out of position.

arcticfox · #3 10-05-2005, 10:19 AM

Do you think villain raises you with anything excpet an ace given you are pre flop raiser? Its a drawless board so likely he has an ace, I'm going into check/call mood here or check/fold depending on his bet size. You don't want to lose a ton of chips with top pair 3rd best kicker.

I also hate your flop bet, it suggests the flop has missed you, I'd bet 800 on the flop and I think you can safely fold if that is raised given villain's stack size. Your turn and river bets do not achieve anything either given their size relative to the pot.

kuro · #4 10-05-2005, 10:50 AM

You aren't likely to fold a better hand. So I'd just check the turn to induce a bluff from worse hands.

play2win · #5 10-05-2005, 12:20 PM

AJo is tough to play UTG normally. But from your description of the other players it might be worth trying to pick up the blinds because everyone is playing tight. So not a bad move there (I would probably have gone 4x BB). Another factor to consider is how you have been playing, have you been picking up a lot of pots without showing down?

The one live player gives you some action which doesn't seem to surprise you. His flat call preflop tells you that he is either trapping holding a big hand or something marginal like Ax or mid PP. If he is an agressive/ loose player I would think that he would have re-raised a 3x BB bet with anything AQ or better.

It is hard to give advice because you stated all the action to the river, hind sight is 20/20. So my advice after the flop is kind of driven by the known action and might be skewed. You hit top pair on a favorible flop, great. I agree with the others, you make your mistake by betting too low. You are at least going to have to go 75% of the pot against an agressive player. The small bet is setting you up to have this stolen from you, which he tries to do. A check raise or re-raise with AJ is a little too agressive I think. So leading out strong and playing this straight forward is the only way to go. You don't need to make any fancy plays, taking the pot now with your hand would be optimal.

Knowing the outcome of the hand I would say that he held something like A10s (not spades obviously). You invested a total of 2400 post flop on this hand. I think you would have been better off using 1200 on the flop and taking it down or folding to an all-in re-raise.

Never the less I like leading out on the turn to recover from the blunder. Because he re-raised on the flop makes me eliminate pocket 8's (or 3's if he is that loose), with a rainbow flop you have to think that he would slow play a little. Knowing that he flat called the turn makes me think that your bet on the river is more for value than a stopper. I think you have his Ax beat. Knowing that he flat called it too eliminates the thought that he could have hit a backdoor flush too, so I have been lead into some of these conclusions.

[ QUOTE ]
What's a better plan after I'm raised on the flop?

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Bottom line: throw and appropriate size, straight forward, bet out there on the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

GTSamIAm · #6 10-05-2005, 01:07 PM

What if I bet a bunch on the flop and he flat calls. Do I bet the turn again? I think so. But how much?

play2win · #7 10-05-2005, 01:14 PM

That would be pretty tough for me. A flat call on a big bet makes me feel like I am being trapped. If you did throw out a 1200 bet on the flop and you are flat called I would have to belive that you are being lead right into a trap. If he hit 2 pair (which he may have), a bet that size should make him feel uncomfortable and move in over the top of you right away. There are no strong draws out there so I don't think he would be fishing either.

If I was called, I would bet the turn, if he flat called again this would confirm my suspicon. At this point I would check the river and see how much he bets. I would be more suspicious of a small bet where he is begging for a call hoping to get paid off rather than a large one. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

GTSamIAm · #8 10-05-2005, 01:19 PM

By the way, I had your read. I thought I was probably ahead of a mid pp or Ax. Turns out he had 88. Strange...

play2win · #9 10-05-2005, 01:51 PM

Did he say that he was afraid of the flush at the end? That is a strange play on his behalf.

I was going to ask what your table image was looking like. If you had been playing very tight or raising lots of hands. Then he might have thought an Ax might be good. Then you have to wonder what he thought you were holding. Even if he is not very good if you play against him a lot he probably "thinks" he knows how you play.

But because he flat called with a set he must give you credit for raising and betting strong hands.

Interesting situation nevertheless. I don't blame you for the read by the end, that is at least what I thought too. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]