3 ugly hands (2 of 3) - Page 3

Diplomat · #21 12-26-2003, 01:23 PM

I agree with Gabe, I would have bet the river.

-Diplomat

Vehn · #22 12-26-2003, 01:37 PM

First off I don't agree the pot is big enough to be fighting over. I think these are exactly the types of pots that you have to give up on against these types of players. Out of position, POS hand, small pot, get em next hand when you have the button.

Theres a couple reasons to checkraise the flop here. The obvious one being to get rid of the other player for certain. Calling the flop to have the BB call also would really make my stomach churn.

EP may have absolutly nothing, but overcards to your pair of course, and fold or fold on the turn and likely a lot of these folds would be FTOP errors. Also your statement that checkraising the flop prevents him from bluffing on the river is wrong - clearly if you do not improve (I wouldn't call catching a heart to be improving really) the correct river play is to check and call. Very often against players like this you checkraise the flop, bet the turn, and check the river and their thought process (I guess) is "Well I have nothing, he checked the river, the only way to win is to bet". Against the very aggressive types who will often pop you back with worse hands then sure, check call them down (if you play on post flop), but your description of the player doesn't sound like that is the case to me. I don't think it matters much either way but I would usually try to use my tighty powers to get him off his hand on the flop or turn when most likely he is drawing live.

But mostly I would just left him have this one and wait for a better opportunity.

Clarkmeister · #23 12-26-2003, 02:22 PM

The BB has checked once already so I wasn't that concerned with getting him out.

As far as the pot, I'm getting 7-1 when it gets to me on what could *easily* be the best hand. And if its not, I'm usually at worst about 50-50 to improve. I just don't see any reason to fold in what looks like such an obviously +EV situation. Given that I plan to go to showdown, my effective odds are nearly 2-1. That seems like a substantial overlay to me.

Clarkmeister · #24 12-26-2003, 02:24 PM

I just don't see any mileage from betting the river when a large reason I am calling him down is because he could easily be bluffing with a big heart. I pretty much think he'll be any hand on the river except maybe a queen.

Al_Capone_Junior · #25 12-26-2003, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I risk the wrath of all the 2+2 gods and complete, BB checks. 6 to the flop for 3BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I ain't a GOD, but I'm a poobah (whatever that's worth). I wasn't going to flame over this. I figured even carpal tunnelers can pull a magoo now and then. But then I saw it wasn't suited. Boo-Hiss.

I can hardly believe you chased bottom pair and a three-high flush draw on that board. Lay off those beers at the table my friend. At least try to keep it under 12 per session. The waitress must have been really good looking.

al

Al_Capone_Junior · #26 12-26-2003, 03:59 PM

I agree that check-raising the flop is no good. You're sort of obligated to bet the turn if you do that, and what will that gain you but a good chance to get raised? I will stick with the "check-call" theory. Assuming you were in the pot in the first place.

al

mike l. · #27 12-26-2003, 04:43 PM

mike l. · #28 12-26-2003, 04:45 PM

"I'd still checkraise the flop."

hate to sound too tight here, but this is ridiculous advice. getting involved on the flop (bad position, bad little cards, etc) here is horrid hold em play.

mike l. · #29 12-26-2003, 04:48 PM

"First off I don't agree the pot is big enough to be fighting over. I think these are exactly the types of pots that you have to give up on against these types of players. Out of position, POS hand, small pot, get em next hand when you have the button."

exactly. i cant believe anyone is taking this hand seriously. this hand is -EV on every street. playing 53o from the sb here is horrific, especially against players who will bully you around postflop. there is nothing even remotely positive about this hand.

Clarkmeister · #30 12-26-2003, 05:41 PM

Mike,

I think its pretty clearly +EV to call on the flop assuming we know BB is going to fold and make it headsup.

I mean, this kind of player isn't going to bet a made flush on the flop. That means he either has a pair, a heart, but probabaly not both. And even if he does have both, I have 4 outs just in case.

So it doesn't matter that I have crappy cards, a crappy pair or a crappy draw. The vast majority of the time he will have *a* pair, or *a* heart, but not both. 7-1 is a huge overlay, as is my roughly 2-1 effective price to go to showdown.

As far as 53o from the SB, it can't possibly be horrific. Against multiple horrid players for 1/4 a BB if it isn't +EV, the most it costs me is literally pennies.