Pressing forward with a marginal hand....

chesspain · #1 06-26-2005, 10:55 AM

Online 3-6 (with a $1.50 SB)...I've been at this table less than one orbit, but already it looks like a loose-passive, donkilicious game.

I'm in the CO and am dealt 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, folded to the Hijack who checks his posted blind, I call, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7SB) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)

Checked to me and I bet, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hijack folds.

Turn: (6BB) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)

Checked to me and I bet, everyone calls.

River (11BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)

Checked to me, and I check behind.

Grease · #2 06-26-2005, 10:58 AM

Wow. Very donkalicious indeed...

I want to say bet the river, but I can't bring myself to do so against 4 other players. If it were 2 or fewer, but not with half the table still in.

I think checking is superior in this situation.

Do you bet A5?

prayformojo · #3 06-26-2005, 11:02 AM

This is exactly the way I would play the hand. That said, I am in the process of re-evaluating this approach. I'm beginning to question whether, with this many people in the hand, the combination of the possibility that you're already beat, plus the reverse implied odds, make this approach a long term loser.

I haven't come up with an answer yet.

By the way, what site offers 3/6 with a $1.50 SB?

ecooke · #4 06-26-2005, 11:21 AM

Some signal in a field of noise, what a welcomed change.

I struggle with little one gappers from the CO and B, how much further down the ladder will you go? Can we agree the difference in EV between calling and folding 97s and down is thin?

I like the turn value bet against 5 opponents. At what point do you take the free card?

chesspain · #5 06-26-2005, 11:33 AM

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I like the turn value bet against 5 opponents. At what point do you take the free card?

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With a flush draw, a gutshot, and MP on an 8-high board, I can't imagine not betting this turn no matter how many players I am facing.

prayformojo · #6 06-26-2005, 11:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the turn value bet against 5 opponents. At what point do you take the free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a flush draw, a gutshot, and MP on an 8-high board, I can't imagine not betting this turn no matter how many players I am facing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the turn bet. What about the flop bet? Is there a point at which we should be saying, "just having top pair isn't enough"? The pot isn't small, but it isn't huge, and the possibility of your being ahead by the river is significant. Is the flop bet a bet that will make money in the long run?

ecooke · #7 06-26-2005, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With a flush draw, a gutshot, and MP on an 8-high board, I can't imagine not betting this turn no matter how many players I am facing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good Point, in my haste I overlooked the gutshot.
Help a guy out and take a look at my 88 hand, I'm really so confused.

Grease · #8 06-26-2005, 11:55 AM

Not betting the flop would give a dreaded free card, and against 6 other players, this would be an egregious error.

prayformojo · #9 06-26-2005, 12:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not betting the flop would give a dreaded free card, and against 6 other players, this would be an egregious error.

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I'm going to post on this hand one more time for now while I'm at work, then I might return when I've had a chance to take another look at the section of SSH that made me start to re-think flop bets like this one.

When reading the following, understand that I would generally bet this flop in a heartbeat. I'm simply no longer convinced that it's correct.

When playing weak suited hands like this pre-flop (which I'm not arguing against in this situation), surely we're looking for more than to flop top pair. Having only flopped top pair, why are we so concerned with guarding against a free card? Why is this weak hand in a smallish pot worth protecting?

chesspain · #10 06-26-2005, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Having only flopped top pair, why are we so concerned with guarding against a free card? Why is this weak hand in a smallish pot worth protecting?

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Given the likelihood that I currently have the best hand with TP and my two weak backdoor draws, I can't believe it is simply correct to give up on this flop, which would happen if I check, since it will be nearly impossible to call on a bet on the turn, given the large number of cards which won't look good to me.

By betting, I encourage overcards to fold--and every overcard that folds increases my chances of winning this pot. In addition, by betting the flop, it greatly increases my chances that I can get a free card on the turn if I choose to take it.

Given all of the above, I still think betting the flop is better than checking.