Commerce 20/40 Players: Preflop Question

BoxTree · #1 08-05-2005, 05:19 AM

Commerce 20/40

Background: I have a reputation for being a very tight preflop player. More watchful players also give me credit for being aggressive postflop.

I'm a little unsure about my standard line for early position, regardless of limpers in front.

UTG, UTG+1, and MP1:
A2s-A7s. I fold.
A8s-A9s. I limp.
ATs-AKs. I raise.

22-99. I limp.
TT-AA. I raise.

I find that A7s and lower gets me in trouble because there are still lots of 20/40 players who play Axo, and of course, my kicker is less likely to be good against such hands.

I find that all pairs end up getting the requisite implied odds to flop a set. Players like to limp preflop.

Yes, some games I'll limp in with A2s UTG. Some games I'll raise A7s from MP1. Some games I'll throw 66 away UTG. Some games I'll raise 77 UTG.

But I'm wondering about your standard line at most 20/40 Commerce games. You know, when you sit down and you're dealt these hands in EP in the first orbit or so.

Btw, Mike L., Klepton, et al., please PM me when you'll next be at Commerce. I'd like to meet up when you can.

sternroolz · #2 08-06-2005, 05:16 PM

If you find that you are getting odds and implied odds on your small pocket pairs(you need 8:1 or equivalent implied odds, correct?), how is it correct to raise with A10s and AJs in EP? You would have serious kicker concerns and three bet concerns, wouldn't you?

bdk3clash · #3 08-06-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You would have serious kicker concerns and three bet concerns, wouldn't you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Only once I get raised on the turn. Until then it's clear sailing!

BoxTree · #4 08-06-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You would have serious kicker concerns and three bet concerns, wouldn't you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Only once I get raised on the turn. Until then it's clear sailing!

[/ QUOTE ]

If I get three-bet preflop, then I may be in trouble. But that doesn't happen very often, and ATs/AJs have too much equity to pass on a raise in EP at most of these tables.

A2s-A9s gets me in a lot more trouble in EP since I limp with it. And raising with these hands in EP is generally a bad idea. I'm not likely to get the hand HU preflop, and I'll have no idea if I'm good when I hit my ace.

When I raise UTG with ATs/AJs and I hit my ace, I'm not worried about my kicker unless I get three-bet preflop (or raised on the turn or check-3bet on the flop, etc.).

Al_Capone_Junior · #5 08-07-2005, 12:43 AM

OK. Haven't spent much time in commerce, none to be exact. $20-$40 used to be my stud game, but stud is dead. Never played hold'em higher than $15-$30. Nevertheless...

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little unsure about my standard line for early position, regardless of limpers in front.

UTG, UTG+1, and MP1:
A2s-A7s. I fold.
A8s-A9s. I limp.
ATs-AKs. I raise.

22-99. I limp.
TT-AA. I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I find that all pairs end up getting the requisite implied odds to flop a set. Players like to limp preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're always getting the odds to flop a set, why on earth wouldn't you want to play those suited aces as well?

Just had to nit-pick that one. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

al

bobdibble · #6 08-07-2005, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You would have serious kicker concerns and three bet concerns, wouldn't you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Only once I get raised on the turn. Until then it's clear sailing!

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean? You will dump a pair of As on turn to a raise if your kicker is a T or a J?

jason_t · #7 08-07-2005, 03:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OK. Haven't spent much time in commerce, none to be exact. $20-$40 used to be my stud game, but stud is dead. Never played hold'em higher than $15-$30. Nevertheless...

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little unsure about my standard line for early position, regardless of limpers in front.

UTG, UTG+1, and MP1:
A2s-A7s. I fold.
A8s-A9s. I limp.
ATs-AKs. I raise.

22-99. I limp.
TT-AA. I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I find that all pairs end up getting the requisite implied odds to flop a set. Players like to limp preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're always getting the odds to flop a set, why on earth wouldn't you want to play those suited aces as well?

Just had to nit-pick that one. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the value from suited aces comes from flopping a pair of aces and not being out-kicked.

Al_Capone_Junior · #8 08-07-2005, 01:15 PM

I think that in a game that loose, most of the value of suited aces comes from making two pair, trips, or *the nut flush*, and also in being able to determine those times you're outkicked when you flop an ace, and successfully get away from it. I could see being pickier in tighter games. I actually fold those small suited aces in tighter games, but a game that loose doesn't qualify.

al

CanIPlay · #9 08-07-2005, 03:54 PM

"Successfully getting away from it", is the hard part and where you lose a lot of money.
Box- What about A-10, A-J off? I have never been to the Commerce or played 20-40 live but for what it is worth I do not play A-10 or A-J suited or not in EP, unless it is a very passive table. Which I hear the Commerce is not.
I do agree with the small pairs, easier to get away from. My motto " No Set, Take a Jet".

bdk3clash · #10 08-07-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You would have serious kicker concerns and three bet concerns, wouldn't you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Only once I get raised on the turn. Until then it's clear sailing!

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean? You will dump a pair of As on turn to a raise if your kicker is a T or a J?

[/ QUOTE ]
No--just that I won't really be worrying about it until then. I'm not saying this is correct or optimal or anything, just that I'm (ignorantly?) optimistic until then.