2 questions: Faith worth it? Great Christian poker player?

#1 09-07-2005, 01:44 AM

I don't frequent this forum, so I apologize if these questions have been covered. If so, any links? I couldn't find any.

#1:
This is average Joe. Joe isn't of intellectual superiority, so Joe cannot deduct that God doesn't exists, assuming an unbias rational mind could deduce this. Also Joe hasn't had a spiritual experience 'proving' God exists & Jesus is who Christians believe He is.

Joe is undecided. Is faith worth it? If the criteria for Joe to get into Heaven is to believe in Jesus and that He died for Joe's sins, then is it worthwhile for Joe to believe in Him. Why or why not?

#2:
I'm not sure how to define a great poker player, but let's say someone who can beat the Big Game where Chip, Doyle, Ivey, Greenstein, and Giang play in. Can a Christian become a great poker player. I thought I read somewhere that Sklansky said this was highly unlikely or maybe it was flat-out no. If no, why not?

Edit: I'm more interested in #1 than #2 if that matters to anyone else.

Alex/Mugaaz · #2 09-07-2005, 01:49 AM

#2- Was unlikely, not impossible. There are great Christian players, and I though I heard Doyle and Chip met in a Bible Studies class!? The discussion about why a Christian probably won't stop the hurricane explains why it's unlikely.

#3 09-07-2005, 02:21 AM

What sorts of christians are they?

#4 09-07-2005, 02:23 AM

#1
It's not a question of 'worth it' or not. It's a question of what's real. If you have the intelligence/awareness/freedom to figure that out for yourself, courage will be the deciding factor as to whether you become christian or atheist. Each person makes that choice for themselves.

#2
I'll back a decisive Christian over a hesitant atheist any day in a game of poker (I'm an atheist btw)

Poker isn't rocket science, and in spite of what Sklansky supposedly(?) said, you don't need to be highly intelligent to be a good poker player. You need certain well developed skills (especially decisiveness, discipline, and focus), some knowledge, and an intuitive feel for various situations.

ThinkQuick · #5 09-07-2005, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
#1
It's not a question of 'worth it' or not. It's a question of what's real. If you have the intelligence/awareness/freedom to figure that out for yourself, courage will be the deciding factor as to whether you become christian or atheist. Each person makes that choice for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man, apparently for Joe it's a question of 'worth it'.

Search for Pascal's wager on google or on this forum, I think you'll find what you're looking for. Make sure to look at rebuttals and analyses and stuff too so you have a more complete picture.

#6 09-07-2005, 03:10 AM

I've rebutted pascal's wager more times that I care to count.

My points come down to this:
1. Which religion do you wager on, and which doctrine do you follow? There are hundreds of mutually exclusive subsets, each of which will send me to hell for not believing and following their particular version.

2. You can apply pascall's wager to any potentially dangerous endeavour, including not driving to work today because of the chance of getting killed on the road (biggest risk for under 30s). And then you'd be dead for eternity, which is not a real good outcome for an atheist. I'd rather take a day off work than be dead for eternity.

3. Would God, who knows all your thoughts, really reward someone didn't really believe in his heart, but went through the motions to assure his spot in heaven?

As for worth it, if people are going to willingly delude themselves, then they may as well be dogs for all they're worth as humans.

Sorry for the hijack, any mention of Pascal's wager pisses me off, because it's just so dumb. There are some good arguments FOR religion, pascal's wager isn't one of them.[/rant]

David Sklansky · #7 09-07-2005, 05:46 AM

The only great poker players I am aware of who are also very religious became that way AFTER they were already great players. Possibly Doyle is an exception. Danny Robinson turned to religion to get away from some big personal problems. There are a few others as well but they are in the vast minority. To be fair though that isn't absolute proof that religious people aren't smart enough to get good since thir religiousness may prevent many of them from trying.

As to my comment about high IQs in poker, anyone who doubts that the higher IQ you have the more likely you will become excellent (at least up to the 150 level) is a moron.

spaminator101 · #8 09-07-2005, 05:03 PM

Doyle is a Christian

#9 09-08-2005, 01:33 AM

I appreciate all the responses.

I don't know about Pascal's wager, so I can't address your former points.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Would God, who knows all your thoughts, really reward someone didn't really believe in his heart, but went through the motions to assure his spot in heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]
In my example, I wasn't necessarily assuming that Joe would weigh whether or not it was worth believing in God & Jesus. I was assuming Joe's belief would've been sincere.

ThinkQuick · #10 09-08-2005, 03:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was assuming Joe's belief would've been sincere.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Joe would up and decide to sincerely believe because he thinks it is 'worth it'?
I'm not sure where I am in this debate now.

I do know though that I'm dissapointed you didn't search for Pascal's wager so that you could have had a more engaging discussion (and maybe learned something).