Is o8 a limpers game?

[KneeCo]

I'm a HE player, I wait for a good hand, then I raise PF, that's what I do.

At limit o8 tables though, it seems like I'm the only one raising PF, why is this?

Is raising PF less common in o8 because it's impossible to have a made hand pf or what?

And more importantly than whether it's common or not, is whether it's the correct approach?

It seems to me that if I have a good hand, which I believe is the best hand, I have to raise it up, no?

[Mr_J]

"At limit o8 tables though, it seems like I'm the only one raising PF, why is this?"

Because most low limit players are loose passive.

"is whether it's the correct approach?"

Depends on the situation, and what you hope to accomplish with the raise. Don't just raise because you have a good hand. Raising at low limits is usually either to build to pot or to knock people out of the pot to get it shorthanded.

Check out O8poker, click on "strategy" then "preflop raising".

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]

Check out O8poker, click on "strategy" then "preflop raising".

[/ QUOTE ]

Shame that what he writes is complete junk. You never raise AA4x preflop 'to eliminate opponents'. Jesus, that's just terrible advice. If I raise it and get 9 callers, i'm going to be extremely pleased. Only read it if you want to be utterly confounded by pointless advice.

[BettyBoopAA]

Quote: "Shame that what he writes is complete junk. You never raise AA4x preflop 'to eliminate opponents'. Jesus, that's just terrible advice. If I raise it and get 9 callers, i'm going to be extremely pleased. Only read it if you want to be utterly confounded by pointless advice"

The advice is correct, you raise with that hand to eliminate people if you can't eliminate people there's no reason to raise with that hand. AA in omaha 8 with 9 callers is not that strong, this is not hold em. However, I want to play in a game where UTG raises and everyone calls.

Back to the OP, the reason why many people limp in is becuase they have hand that plays better multi way and don't want people to fold.
A 2 3 8, wants A 3 and 2 3 hands to call not fold.
If raising doesn't eliminate any players then go ahead and raise with this hand as the first one in.
In some games I will raise many times preflop and others I limp and frequently reraise.

[emptyshell]

I think it's that time of the month for Ribbo.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Check out O8poker, click on "strategy" then "preflop raising".

[/ QUOTE ]

Shame that what he writes is complete junk. You never raise AA4x preflop 'to eliminate opponents'. Jesus, that's just terrible advice. If I raise it and get 9 callers, i'm going to be extremely pleased. Only read it if you want to be utterly confounded by pointless advice.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ribbo is truly a master in the Art of Being a Troll.

Since his post is so instructive, let’s break it down to see why it’s so good.

1. He offers no competing argument. Every good Troll knows you don’t want to offer your own insight in a Troll-post. This just lets the original poster reply based on substantive argument, and opens yourself up to being wrong. Ribbo avoids this common trap, by sticking with the every popular, “Nyah, nyah, you’re a poopyhead” logic. Classic.

2. Tone of superiority. This is almost mandatory. Good trolls know you need to convey that you are somehow better than everyone else.

3. Personal attacks. This is closely related to the first two points. After all, if you’re not offering logic or alternatives, you’ve got to stir the pot somehow. Make sure you don’t use neutral words like ‘disagree’ when a more inflammatory one like ‘junk’ is available.

4. Mis-direction and exaggeration. This one is more subtle, but its clear that Ribbo read the original article then fixated on one small part to try and find fault with – the rationale behind raising (not the action of raising mind you, just the rationale!), missing the more important point the article makes – that determining your preflop raising objective is key.

5. The only real slip he makes is letting his petty jealousy show through. Reading that others like o8poker.com makes his penis feel small, so he’s got to compensate for this. But his envy is a little too obvious here. However, he only had 5 sentences to work with and he’s got lots of Trolling still to do today. Overall, good work.

--Greg
www.o8poker.com

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
At limit o8 tables though, it seems like I'm the only one raising PF, why is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

KneeCo - There are no baby mule deer in Yellowstone park (or probably anywhere) that chase wolves. That’s because all the fawns that chased wolves have been eaten.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that if I have a good hand, which I believe is the best hand, I have to raise it up, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

You’re not quite correct that there are no pre-flop raisers at limit-Omaha-8 tables. Once in a while a Texas hold ‘em regular like you sits down and usually raises when entering the action. And unlike fawns that chase wolves, someone who usually raises before the flop in an Omaha-8 game, even playing against seasoned, decent limit-Omaha-8 players, can get lucky and survive for a while, or even be successful for a while.

And sometimes veteran Omaha-8 regulars will raise before the flop. I can’t speak for everyone, but for me, more than the actual cards I have been dealt, raising or not depends on who is in the game and what I think the effect of the raise will be. You don’t necessarily earn more with a premium starting hand by raising before the flop. Against some groups of opponents, I think you probably do, but against players who know the game well, I think you don’t.

And raising before the flop without nice starting cards, unless you have a very good specific reason, is probably generally not very wise. (Raising before the flop to get more money into the pot when you have a good starting hand may sound to you like a good enough specific reason, but you don't necessarily win more money by playing that way).

Watching some Texas hold ‘em regulars play limit-Omaha-8 is kind of like watching a young dog on a beach with a flock of sea gulls. The dog will run at the seagulls and they will take flight and scatter. Since I’ve seen that a lot of times but I’ve never actually seen a dog catch a sea gull, I think it’s probably not a very successful strategy for a dog, if hungry, to rush a flock of sea gulls. In other words, there’s probably a better way for a hungry dog to catch a sea gull. (But if the dog has fun doing it, that’s a different matter).

In a similar way, when you sit down at a passive limit-Omaha-8 game and begin raising when you enter the action, you’ll disturb the sea gulls - but I’m not sure you’ll catch any.

Why don’t veteran limit-Omaha-8 players raise when they enter the action? Well... some do - especially successful tournament players when playing in tournaments.

But in a limit ring game involving seasoned limit-Omaha-8 ring game regulars, the norm, as you have noticed, is for the game to be rather passive before the flop. (But it doesn’t necessarily remain passive after the flop).

Why don’t veteran limit-Omaha-8 ring game players usually raise when they enter the action before the flop in a full game? Who can say? I imagine they think they will be more successful by not raising.

But although the young dog may not catch any, it does make life more difficult for the sea gulls by rushing at them. I think to have long range success you do need to do some pre-flop raising, if only to mix up your game and confuse your opponents. There seem to be different successful styles of play, involving different propensities for pre-flop raising.

But maybe you shouldn’t want to <font color="white">_</font> always, or even usually raise before the flop - and maybe you shouldn’t want to always raise with certain types of hands from certain positions. For example, a raise from early position to limit the field with a hand that does better one-on-one than against a full field seems logical, as does a greed raise from late position after many limpers with a hand that has a good chance to make the nut low. But if your opponents are going to put you on those hands when you do come in for a raise, you telegraph your holding when you raise, and even though you may make more money from the first betting round when you do win, you don’t necessarily make more money on the second, third, and fourth rounds by playing that way.

There are various ways around this dilemma. You make it very tough for your opponents to play against you when you frequently shift gears, or do some raising at random - when you mix it up.

But maybe if you’re a hungry young dog on a beach you don’t want the sea gulls all flying around overhead, even though you do make life tougher for them. Maybe if you’re playing in a nice, profitable, loose, passive Omaha-8 game you don’t want to cause the sea gulls to become alarmed.

One big difference between Texas hold ‘em and Omaha-8 is the high-low-split nature of Omaha-8. Another big difference is that if your starting hand has four different ranks of cards (no pairs), then there are six different two card combinations within your four cards. It’s not exactly the same as having your choice between six different Texas hold ‘em hands, but it’s in-between that and having one Texas hold ‘em hand. You - <font color="white">_</font>and all your opponents have a variety of ways to find a fit with the flop and then (what really counts) the five-card board on the river.

It’s easy to know which cards you want in your starting hand to make a winning (or tying) low hand. But the object of the game really is to scoop. Before you see any board cards, it’s very difficult to predict which particular two cards you will want to be holding on the river to make a winning high hand.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[MyTurn2Raise]

the raising before the flop question comes up again and again...I think Baldwin/Gregorich's chapter in SS2 explained it best for me in a way that made theoretical and practical sense. I suggest looking at that.

[gergery]

You are starting to sound a lot like Ray Zee with his owls!

And that is a high compliment indeed....

[IHateKeithSmart]

Buzz, you rule. Gergery, speaking of zee - this characteristic of o8 games is what made me switch from hold 'em WRT ring games (still play tourneys). Zee says you should find a game that fits your personality, and that Omaha8 can be better suited for less aggressive players. I find that to be very true in my case. If I look at my PT numbers, my pfr is almost zero, and my af goes up as streets progress (as the hand unfolds and I get a feel for where I'm at).