they play bad, do I play worse?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I get 1:10 odds which means I only need to collect 1 additional BB on a jack. Seems nice.


[/ QUOTE ]

You need to collect more than 1 bet. 3 clean outs alone is 14-1, not 11-1. Add additional odds for a redraw against you.

The reason I discount the other out completely is that takes up the partial dirty out plus the possibility that someone may be holding a J.

Mind you, should you see the turn, and the flush J hit, you're not auto-folding to a bet especially if the BB is the one betting. Tough spot to be in, actually.

[ QUOTE ]
When BB bets out I would think that I might get to see the turn for 1 SB (great odds) or 2 SB (since the passive BB will not threebet that often).

[/ QUOTE ]

BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you(uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand.

I think it's a close decision overall.

b

[MattiasL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get 1:10 odds which means I only need to collect 1 additional BB on a jack. Seems nice.


[/ QUOTE ]

You need to collect more than 1 bet. 3 clean outs alone is 14-1, not 11-1. Add additional odds for a redraw against you.


[/ QUOTE ]

But if it goes for 2 bets with only BB and button playing the risk for a flush is not that bad (it would almost have to be AsKs or AsQs, and high PPs are more probable). MP calling changes things.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When BB bets out I would think that I might get to see the turn for 1 SB (great odds) or 2 SB (since the passive BB will not threebet that often).

[/ QUOTE ]

BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you(uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But if the button and MP are not totally hopeless they will also know BB has a power hand. So getting 1 SB is far from impossible (if for example button has AK), and even if the chance is smallish it helps your odds. For example if the price is
- 30% 1 SB
- 50% 2 SB
- 20% 3-4 SB
I have odds even if I were to fold to a BB 3bet (which I am not sure if I would do even with MP calling - but a cap sucks in that situation).

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's a close decision overall.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can agree with that.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a close decision overall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think so too, that’s why I posted this hand. Also I was multitabling several good tables at the time and couldn’t put as much thought into my decisions at this table as I wanted to.

[ QUOTE ]
BB is a passive that's just capped preflop and bet the flop into an UTG initial raiser and preflop 3 bettor. That's usually AA or KK. You have an aggressive behind you that 3 bet you (uncharacteristically, according to the OP) and will very likely raise this flop. I don't see this flop going for just 1 bet. Here's to wishful thinking. Figure a 2 bet flop. Also the factor that a player is almost all in which takes away some of your implied odds should you hit your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although the aggressive player behind me has 3 bet preflop for the first time, I don’t think it is necessarily uncharacteristic – I haven’t played many hands with him. I put him on a typical 3 betting range here, perhaps a little wider. In retrospect he may have been tilty after really pushing some hands earlier that he lost.

At the time of the hand I thought the flop would go 2 bets, as it did, but that the turn would only cost me a bet to continue since BB is so passive. I completely did not expect the BB to check-raise the turn, and it freaked me out. I really rushed my decision here, and I thought another Q would give me trips to beat the supposed AA/KK of the BB, which with the gutter outs and implied odds should justify a call. MP1 could have anything that is remotely related to the board, 2 random spades are definitely a possibility, as well as JT. Button could have AKs or AQs, or even trip tens. So hitting another Q may not be an out. Throughout the hand I don’t think I was adequately discounting my outs. If I don't fold the flop I think the turn is definitely a fold.

Looking at the hand now I like folding the flop best. It could definitely go 3 or 4 bets, my position stinks, and I may be facing flush and house redraws (or higher straight draws) even if I improve.

Since I wandered my way to the river, do you like calling it? Or are 20:1 odds not good enough for top pair with 2nd kicker in this hand?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Since I wandered my way to the river, do you like calling it? Or are 20:1 odds not good enough for top pair with 2nd kicker in this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're really not sure if this 'passive' player that just capped preflop and checkraised the turn and is now leading into you on the river has you beat, call it.

b

[lil feller]

Am I the only one that folds to the PF cap from a guy that raises 6% of his hands. I don't see many flops you can like against this field in a capped pot.

Even if you flop a draw, like you did sort of did, you're sandwiched inbetween the 2 preflop agressors and are going to have to pay a lot of bets to draw. This is not a good spot for KQs, I let this go to the PF cap.

lf

[Vincent Lepore]

Folding to two more bets (reraise and cap) preflop is probably the correct play. (capped by a passive calling station must send fear through your heart). Limping with K,Qs, online, utg, is probably a better play than raisng.

The rest of the hand is straight forward although I probably bet the turn.

Vince

Fold PF. If not, Fold the flop. If not there, fold the turn.

Tex

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that folds to the PF cap from a guy that raises 6% of his hands. I don't see many flops you can like against this field in a capped pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding to two more bets (reraise and cap) preflop is probably the correct play. (capped by a passive calling station must send fear through your heart).

[/ QUOTE ]

Originally I thought that getting 7:1 on the last 2 bets going in gave good enough odds to call, but I ran thru some simulations with likely hands and it isn’t enough. I agree I should have laid this down before the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're really not sure if this 'passive' player that just capped preflop and checkraised the turn and is now leading into you on the river has you beat, call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the actual hand I folded the river. Here are the results:

River: (18.86 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds[Kh, Qh], MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 20.86 BB

BB shows [ Js, Qs ] two pairs, queens and nines.
MP1 doesn't show [ Tc, 6c ] two pairs, tens and nines.
Button doesn't show [ 4d, 4s ] two pairs, nines and fours.

Button left the table after this hand, BB stuck around and played like a passive calling station for another hour before he left. I'm still amazed he capped preflop.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
BB bets, Hero folds[Kh, Qh], MP1 calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

What! Wow did I miss that. Horrible fold.

Vince

[Dominic]

preflop: overly aggressive but not horrible as long as you're not always capping with this hand...

flop: don't like it. raise this and get the others to fold - clean up your outs a little. You've still got a pretty good hand here - four outs to the nuts and six more outs to TP...you played this too passively.

turn - it's checked to you - LEAD! Make any diamonds pay for their draw. If you run into KJ/J8 - oh well - you still have a few outs to chop.

river - well, i certainly don't like a bet now with on all-in. I don't think you're making a better hand fold, so check/fold to a bet.


Ah...thought the OP was the one capping - fold preflop. If not, fold on the flop.