Folding the nut low

[Jonathan]

Hi,

In limit Omaha Hi/Lo 8, is it common to fold the nut low?
How often do you fold the nut low on the end?

For example, here is a hand where I should have considered folding
on the turn and the river(?). When I review the hand, it seems like my river raise is suicide.

Thanks,
Jonathan
__________________________________________________ ________
Reads; Swillcoy bets and raises every hand


***** Hand History for Game 2356308190 *****
$1/$2 Omaha Hi/Lo - Wednesday, July 13, 06:00:55 EDT 2005
Table Table 31842 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: jridge86 ( $8.70 )
Seat 4: Hero ( $80.95 )
Seat 5: swillcoy ( $62.97 )
Seat 7: gomtang77 ( $59.37 )
Seat 10: TalynGS ( $30.99 )
Seat 9: thenutzz28x ( $76.63 )
Seat 3: MASTER_TIGER ( $44.88 )
Seat 8: Shaginator ( $44 )
Seat 1: Mapie306 ( $59.25 )
Seat 6: POLEANDSKI ( $46 )
POLEANDSKI posts small blind [$0.50].
gomtang77 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ah 9s 2s 6h ]
Shaginator folds.
thenutzz28x folds.
TalynGS calls [$1].
Mapie306 folds.
jridge86 raises [$2].
MASTER_TIGER calls [$2].
Hero calls [$2].
swillcoy raises [$3].
POLEANDSKI folds.
gomtang77 folds.
TalynGS calls [$2].
jridge86 calls [$1].
MASTER_TIGER calls [$1].
Hero calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 4d, Jc ]
TalynGS checks.
jridge86 bets [$1].
MASTER_TIGER calls [$1].
Hero calls [$1].
swillcoy raises [$2].
TalynGS calls [$2].
jridge86 raises [$2].
MASTER_TIGER calls [$2].
Hero calls [$2].
swillcoy raises [$2].
TalynGS calls [$2].
jridge86 calls [$1].
MASTER_TIGER calls [$1].
Hero calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
TalynGS checks.
jridge86 is all-In [$1.70]
MASTER_TIGER calls [$1.70].
Hero calls [$1.70].
swillcoy calls [$1.70].
TalynGS calls [$1.70].
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
TalynGS checks.
MASTER_TIGER bets [$2].
>You have options at The sound of Chips Table!.
Hero raises [$4].
swillcoy folds.
TalynGS calls [$4].
MASTER_TIGER raises [$4].
Hero calls [$2].
TalynGS calls [$2].

[dcasper70]

looks like you're up agaist at least one other A2, but with five to the turn, you're still making money if quartered.
You've also got a mediocre flush, which may get lucky on occasion...

I'd think you're most likely quartered, and I wouldn't have raised the river, but at this level I think you'll take half or more enough times to make up for that bet.

[chaos]

If there is one other nut low it is often correct to call even if you think you are being quartered. In loose games there is usually enough money in the pot to show a profit.

Usually I have to be convinced that there are two other nut lows out there against me and I have no chance at high. Say on the turn the board is Q 8 6 3 of mixed suits. Four players see the flop and the turn for one bet each. The turn card enables the low and the action is bet, raise, reraise. It is hard to imagine that there are not two lows out there against you. Even if there is only one low you may have to put in the maximum bets on the turn and the river just to get your money back. In such a situation I would fold.

[Jonathan]

But then do you totally discount my flush high?
After all, the is some possibility that I could
win the high and take 3/4 of the pot, no?

Jonathan

[Cooker]

Folding the nut low on the end is probably not a good idea at low limit Omaha/8. If you start to play pot limit, you should be folding dry nut lows and draws to dry nut lows quite often. Having just the nut low can be a tenuous situation, however, with 4 players in, you are still breaking even on every bet to call and so should continue with your low to get your quarter of the money already in the pot.

At the low limits, often you are cutting up a worse low and the nut high will almost always be betting and raising, so folding can be terrible. If the nut high is a straight, I am much more likely to raise with my nut low, because often you will be quartering 2 high hands if it is bet and raised in front of you. Most low limit players know that being quartered is bad and will play carefully with strong lows while not realizing that a nut high straight is just as easy to get quartered as a nut low.

[chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
Usually I have to be convinced that there are two other nut lows out there against me and I have no chance at high.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the hand you posted I would not fold on the turn or the river. You have a chance to win high. There is only one opponent raising on the river.

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Usually I have to be convinced that there are two other nut lows out there against me and I have no chance at high.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the hand you posted I would not fold on the turn or the river. You have a chance to win high. There is only one opponent raising on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I thought.
I was disappointed that I only won 1/6 of the pot.

Thanks all for the input.

Jonathan

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I was disappointed that I only won 1/6 of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jonathan - Getting sixthed with acey-deucey in a ten handed game is fairly common (probability = 0.05310), and there's not much difference between getting sixthed and getting quartered. (You end up being awarded two thirds as much of the pittance you would have gotten if just quartered). At any rate, getting sixthed is part of the game and we all endure it now and then (about one time out of nineteen when we make the nut low with ace-deuce).

I don't think your raise on the river was horrid, although it didn't turn out to work out very well for you this time, since you didn't win the high and also got sixthed for the low. But it only ended up costing you two bucks and another time the river raise with a non-nut back-door flush plus the nut low would work out well for you. I think it works out well more often than you lose with it.

With two spades on the flop, I think a river raise with the fifth-nut flush would not be smooth - but I like it with the back-door fifth-nut flush, in spite of the fact that it turned out to cost you two bucks in this instance.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[FeliciaLee]

You've gotten some good advice. I won't bore you by repeating what has already been said. I don't get to post as much lately because of chemo screwing up my ability to think clearly.

I will add some little general hints on dealing with the nut low in O8, though.

1) Watch how the hand played out from beginning to end to get a good grasp on how many other players have the A2xx.
2) Look for good opportunities to get many overcalls by simply overcalling yourself in order to make a little money when you get quartered (as opposed to jamming yourself).
3) Any other "outs" that you have can help you from losing money with the nut low.
4) There is often so much in the pot on the river, that it would be foolish to fold the nut low, even if you think you might be getting 1/8.
5) Read Zee's book, then read it again, then memorize it, then type it out, then recite it at a poetry reading, then... I'm sure you get my point. Yes, the A2xx situation has to be adjusted a little bit for today's crazy-loose play, but it is still the most definitive work on the planet, IMO.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
www.felicialee.net

[Notorious G.O.B.]

I actually like your raise on the river. You hit a backdoor flush, you've got a pretty good shot at getting 3/4's of the pot. Who knows, maybe one of the people behind you could fold a non nut flush facing two bets cold. Certainly, you cannot fold this hand.