When tilt is good.....

[mosquito]

I think it is important that people realize that while
going on tilt is -EV short term, and a potential long
term problem, an intelligent player will make tilt something
that they learn from. Therefore, +EV long term.

Before the flames start, let me give some examples.

1. Recognition of tilt moods allows a player to correct/
quit much sooner. +EV

2. Review of tilt hands will allow recognition of tendencies
in self of poor play, allowing for correction. +EV

3.Occasionally tilt may allow you to expand your repretoire.
Today while I was slightly on tilt, I tried and succesfully
executed a more advanced NL steal play than I would normally
attempt. This time, I was rewarded with success when the opp
folded. Of course I could have been bluffing with the best
hand, but it seems unlikely. I now have a new tool, which
can be applied with proper care and caution. +EV

4. If you can figure out what 'caused' the tilt, you can
grow as a person. It may require seeking help, but at least
you have a start. ++++EV

I'm sure there is more, but that's a good start.

-mosquito

If tilt is only good with regards to recognizing it and preventing it, is not that the very criteria for saying tilt is bad?

[ QUOTE ]
If tilt is only good with regards to recognizing it and preventing it, is not that the very criteria for saying tilt is bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If tilt is only good with regards to recognizing it and preventing it, is not that the very criteria for saying tilt is bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Two people who failed to read the post, par for the
course.

[Goodnews]

then according to your logic, by having complete emotional control, something many players strive for, is now -EV because the things you posted about being +EV is now negated and can never be gained if you never go on tilt.

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
then according to your logic, by having complete emotional control, something many players strive for, is now -EV because the things you posted about being +EV is now negated and can never be gained if you never go on tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's not what I said. You logic is flawed.

I'll let others explain.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If tilt is only good with regards to recognizing it and preventing it, is not that the very criteria for saying tilt is bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Two people who failed to read the post, par for the
course.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tilt is a mistake
Sometimes our mistakes allow us to learn from them
Despite how we learn from them, mistakes are still mistakes

What you mean to say is that sometimes after the mistake, once we have learned from it, we are better than we were before the mistake once you consider our additional knowledge.



Heres another one:

Tilt is good when:

5) We put our opponents on it, so they play poorly +EV

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If tilt is only good with regards to recognizing it and preventing it, is not that the very criteria for saying tilt is bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Two people who failed to read the post, par for the
course.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tilt is a mistake
Sometimes our mistakes allow us to learn from them
Despite how we learn from them, mistakes are still mistakes

What you mean to say is that sometimes after the mistake, once we have learned from it, we are better than we were before the mistake once you consider our additional knowledge.



Heres another one:

Tilt is good when:

5) We put our opponents on it, so they play poorly +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty good. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Points 3 and 5 listed so far are the only valid points. The other points are simply why its good to recognize tilt, which in itself is a bad thing.

As for point 3, I'd like to expand. Experimentation with new "techniques", along with deception, cost $$ in the sense that doing so requires a play that is suboptimal in the current hand. It is important to note that, while it is possible, these plays are not always +EV in the long run. Many players' results suffer from performing too much deception (read: FPS), or trying too many "new things" (read: expensive lessons).

In the way you describe point 3, you leave it open as to whether or not your possibly incorrect play enhanced your ability to play aggressively. This is dependent on you properly taking advantage of the information earned from this hand.

In any case, I think we are simply arguing semantics. I agree that it's important to recognize when you are on tilt and make the appropriate changes. FWIW, I've seen players go on tilt for weeks at a time and not be able to recognize it. This was not good for them... but it was great for me.

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
Points 3 and 5 listed so far are the only valid points. The other points are simply why its good to recognize tilt, which in itself is a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll accept that view has validity. Personally, I would
rephrase #5 so that there are no unethical implications.

[ QUOTE ]
In the way you describe point 3, you leave it open as to whether or not your possibly incorrect play enhanced your ability to play aggressively. This is dependent on you properly taking advantage of the information earned from this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lessons learned are valuable regardless of the source. The actual source and the amount learned, are actually unimportant regtarding the thesis. I would not contend that it is correct to go on tilt in order to learn. It is correct to take advantage of learning opportunities when they present themselves.

FWIW, this particular lesson was not trivial. Given a HH and a history of my play would make that clear to you. On the other hand, it's impact on my profitability will be limited until I play in more games where that type of move is more appropriate. So, neither chicken nor feathers. Perhaps an egg. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ]

In any case, I think we are simply arguing semantics. I agree that it's important to recognize when you are on tilt and make the appropriate changes. FWIW, I've seen players go on tilt for weeks at a time and not be able to recognize it. This was not good for them... but it was great for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonderful! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Semantics aside, I want to underline that it is learning opportunities that need to be recognized. Not that tilt is better, worse or somehow special.

In fact, the entire game is a learning opportunity. Most people seem to have a problem recognizing that. By pointing
out the opportunity when you are "not in your right mind" it should be more obvious that other situations have untapped value as well.

-mosquito