I flop 2 pair but hate my hand

[Barry]

20/40 at the Borg' it had been a really bad game, but was starting to pick up a bit.

I'm 3 off the button with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

2 limpers to me, I raise, folded to the SB (tight, decent player) who makes it 3 bets, we all call.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets, 1 caller, action is to me.

What should my plan be?

[Smasharoo]

What should my plan be?

Check fold?

AK, AJ, KK, JJ, AA, all of which are possible here all crush you. You have zero outs barring running Ks or Js, which likely don't exist.

You can fill up and still loose.

You're only in for 1.5 BB so far, I don't see the +EV to staying around and quite likely making a second best hand.

That's just me, though.

[NLSoldier]

smasharoo, did you take that rolf slotboom quiz taht was posted in the HUSH forum. I am very confident that you would ACE it!

[Smasharoo]

/Shrug. If it's weak tight to fold KJ here I guess I'm weak tight then.

Clearly you should raise here, I mean, it's TWO PAIR! The mistake was not capping preflop.

[anatta]

Calling down is an easy way to play this, you put in 2.5 big bets, see a showdown in a pot that would be about 14BB at the end. If a bad card comes and the MP raises, you can get out cheaply. You do get to draw cheaply to your backdoor str8!

Another option is to throw in a raise and see where you stand and fold it if you face further aggression.

If you raise the flop, and he three-bets you, I think putting him on a set or top two would be reasonable. I guess he could three-bet you with AQ.

If you wait for the turn, now you are putting in your 2.5 anyways, he folds QQ, and repops you most times otherwise, then you fold?!? (You know, you flop 2 pair but I hate your hand!) This does make MP pay if drawing. Your prolly not gonna get MP to fold AQ or QQ (pair-n-gutter), but he pays too, but how likely is he gonna have this? I kinda like this if I trust myself to fold a big pot if three-bet, which is to say I couldn't do it.

Or you could make a big laydown on the flop. I won't do it getting 17:1, even though drawing dead or nearly so a lot. I'd just hate for him to have QQ, AQ, TT or something just wacky.

I probably just call down.

[Smasharoo]

This is actually a bold decision, one that I couldn't make getting 17:1 even though drawing dead a lot.


Huh? 17:1? Calling down will cost you 2.5 BB, there's 6 in there now, if EVERYONE calls all the way, including the op you end up with 16BB TOTAL in the pot for 2.5 more BB. That's more like ~7 to 1, and it's not likely everyone's calling down.

[Michael Davis]

How about, make sure one bet goes in on every street?

I don't think going through any of the processes to extract MP from this hand are worth it given that you might be badly beaten.

-Michael

[anatta]

Well its 17:1 on the flop (I edited but its still mostly there). You are right, the odds of calling down are much less. I suggested that the odds that SB has hero beat (that is he doesnt have QQ, AQ, TT or something else) might make it worth seeing river for 2.5 BB. I assumed MP wasn't going to call all the way and I estimated pot size at 14 BB.

[DeeJ]

bottom 2 pair on a coordinated board, at least call down from here but get out if the action gets too hot. You do have a strong hand though, and are likely ahead. You aren't going to lose an Ace (AQ/AT Ax) from calling unless two more hearts come out.

Raise. You may pick up a K and really punish the flush draws (or even made flushes).

[elysium]

hi barry

this is a tough one barry, but you should raise, hoping to improve if reraised. unfortunate problems can crop up if the MP comes to life, and this is a situation that can become costly when that happens. and this is the whole reason for the raise.

you need to represent the straight to keep the MP lower straight from raising of the expensive round. you are also looking to fold that MP out of course, because if the EP doesn't come over the top, you want heads up action on the turn.

that is what is so important. you must reraise to driveout that MP.

on the turn, mo matter what card hits, you want to be checked to by the EP. so you reraise to driveout the MP, and to get checked to on the turn by the EP; much like raising for a free-showdown. i guess you could call it some type of variation of a free-showdown raise or something. and here's where your 2+2 schooling comes in because then, if you can manipulate the EP into checking to you on the turn, you check the turn down, provided of course that your heads up.

this technique gives you a much better idea about where you are in the hand, and also gets out a nuisancesome MP turn raiser who decideds to do a little representation betting of his own.

you need to reraise that flop barry.