50/100 vs. GoG

[scdavis0]

As stated clearly in my original post, I said that yes of course, you can start leading with all sorts of stuff.

However.

You can just as easily check/call the flop and lead the turn with all sorts of stuff. You can check/raise the flop with all sorts of stuff.

I simply contend that either of these are stronger default lines out of position over the long run.

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i mean, youre serious right?

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Serious as a heart attack brother

[Chris Daddy Cool]

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What percent of the time does the action go:

Button raise
BB call
BB check
Button bet

Basically always.


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um. no.

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You know he's gonna bet. He knows that you know he's gonna bet. Why would you lead with TPTK?

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becomes sometimes i hope to end the hand right then and there.

because sometimes i lead with flopped flushes and sets to protect the times i have tptk or middle pair or even a bluff.

there are lots of reasons to bet this flop. checking because "you know he'll bet" is not a good reason not to.

[scdavis0]

My take on Bruiser's game is that he rarely leads a flop heads up out of position with TPTK "hoping to end the hand right there".

He isn't scared to check call the flop to catch the near automatic flop continuation bet from a very good and aggressive player, and then play poker from there.

Bruiser doesn't lead flops in these situations. To tell him to do it on THIS hand in a vacuum is silly.

[Ben5505]

OOP against a great player on a super cordinated board. Sounds like a hand I dont want to be involved in. Needless to say, I like a lead on the turn folding to a raise. It's too risky to give him the oppurtunity to check behind in this situation.

[scdavis0]

To reiterate: check-call, check-raise, or lead flop in this very common situation are all playing style considerations. I began to make an argument about which style I prefer, but there is not point in engaging in that here.

None of them are clearly correct or incorrect. People that lead flop here are going to do it with a lot of hands. People that check-raise here are going to do it with a lot of hands. People that check-call here are going to do it with a lot of hands.

Bruiser likes to check-call here. This is not wrong. Let's move on.

The meat of this hand is the action from the time the turn card peels off until completion.

Saying "lead flop" is simply lazy analysis.

I hate these spots (who doesn't?)

I'm gonna go against the flow here and advocate 'pulling a Bruiser', as someone here called it - check-call flop, check-call turn (with this card), and hopefully check-check river.

Yes, it sucks to put him in control, but Í don't think you have much of a choice. It's the perfect example of a hand that hates a raise; too good to fold, not good enough to call. Reality is, you're in a crappy spot - out of position on a board with lots of scare cards, and a marginal hand. People don't hate these spots for nothing. There is no easy way to wiggle out of it. Weak play? Perhaps. But ýou're forced into it by the circumstances.

Look at it from this side: if you're gonna have a tough time calling a turn or river big bet, the decision has to be close, and whatever you do, it cannot be VERY wrong. If you're worried that he's taking advantage of your weakness and bluffing you off the best hand, call. If he does this often, calling should be profitable. If he doesn't, you can safely fold even though he might be bluffing some of the time, because mostly he'll be milking you.

Remember, it's no fun firing three barrels into somebody on a bluff. Maybe you're showing weakness but, hell, you are weak. Showing strength instead is nice, but not if it's gonna wind up costing you more.

If you don't set yourself up for a big mistake, such as calling a turn all in with just your pair of jacks, the situation can't be (much) more profitable for him than it will be for you if the spots are reversed.

H

[Ben5505]

I cant stand the idea of check-calling this hand through.

[Popinjay]

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Check-fold.

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If you're going to check-call this flop, and check-fold a blank turn, why are you even calling preflop?

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Why I like check-fold:

GoG raised preflop then fired a semi-dangerous flop. He could have anything here. Bruiser check-called which in my mind represents large strength (a made flush) to GoG. On the turn if Bruiser bets out after having check-called it does not correspond with powerful holdings. A flush would not bet out. A set, or very good draw would have put more in on the flop. Therefore after check-calling the flop Bruiser should not bet out the turn as it narrows his hand range to something that most likely cannot call a raise (like TPTK). So betting the turn gives GoG the advantage in knowing Bruiser's cards and allows him to make a great bluff or a necessary call. Sticking with the representation of a big hand Bruiser should check the turn. GoG at this point would have to be very daring to bluff or semi-bluff again. If GoG bets this turn I would have to believe he has either a good hand in need of protection like two pair/set or a made flush himself, all of which has Bruiser beat. Therefore I like check-fold to a decent sized bet. If it is under-bet then other lines are plausible.

[cero_z]

Hi scdavid,

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You know he's gonna bet. He knows that you know he's gonna bet. Why would you lead with TPTK?

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In this case, you would do it to protect your hand while not becoming immediately committed without some better information.

If you check-raise the flop, as you suggest, you are put in an awful spot if he pushes. You know he could be doing this with hands that have you crushed, and with good draws that are about even with you with 2 cards to come, and occasionally with air. Tough fold, tough call; the opposite of your goal. Even if he just calls, he puts you in the spot where one more normal bet given the pot size commits you.

Leading into him gives you so much more info than check-calling or check-raising. If the action goes check, bet, call, he knows you have a decent hand, but you don't know anything about his hand, since he will automatically bet the flop, according to you. If you lead, he doesn't know if you have a set/straight/flush, the As, TP, a Str8+flush draw, or air. If he raises that bet, you have a better idea of his hand (almost certainly not air) than if you'd check-raised. Plus, you haven't put that 2nd bet in yet; he has.

[BobboFitos]

cero, 4handed in this spot as a "standard" would you be more likely to reraise/call/fold pf?