Bad Beat or Bad Play?

Fredrik · #1 03-07-2005, 05:45 AM

I'm somewhat new to the game; and enjoy playing both free multiboard tournaments (more for learning how to read players and recognize good/bad flops than actual playing experience) and one table tournaments for money (Just moved to 10/1 instead of 5/1, as I had to have much higher winning rate on 5/1 to 'get even')

Yesterday; I played a 10/1 table and got this play:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter

CO (t775)
Hero (t770)
SB (t695)
BB (t800)
UTG (t1055)
UTG+1 (t1190)
MP1 (t760)
MP2 (t1955)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, 3 folds, Hero raises to t30, 2 folds, UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15.

Flop: (t115) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t65, UTG calls t65, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (t245) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t100, UTG calls t100.

River: (t445) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t445

Results in white below: 
UTG has 8c Ah (one pair, aces).
Hero has Kh Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins t445. 

I'm not sure how I could have played it better. Can anyone give me some pointers?

willie · #2 03-07-2005, 05:49 AM

k, where to begin.

it's a bad beat but you set yourself up

early levels, my standard raise for a big hand is 75, you'll be suprised whta you get called with.

so you go 75 preflop and probably get it down to one caller.

you bet approximately 2/3- full pot on the flop. hopefully the guy hit the jack and wants to play, you also should be slightly wary of a heart draw.

if they're still around, see if something scary comes on the turn and if not, then typically push..... with this turn, a second diamond comes up, now the board is double suited and you might want to get your money in to stop somebody from pullin the draw on you cheap.

you set yourself up for this one by underplaying your hand quite a bit

it'll take some adjustment but you can win at 10+1s.

going to 30 just invites all the wrong hands in. as far as this joker calling down, if he calls a big bet preflop and stiff flop/turn bets drawing an ace, then so be it.

raptor517 · #3 03-07-2005, 06:37 AM

well, its a combination of both actually. you played the hand pretty terribly, however, you can fix that very easily, so no worries.

first off, dont EVER min raise. EVER. only im allowed to min raise. second of all, its a 10+1, so raise more than you think you should, you WILL get action. people like action, so they give action. make it like 75-100 to go. when you get called, bet at least 3/4ths the pot on the flop if an ace doesnt come. easy enough right? in a 10+1 im not going to fold KK probably. there are too many worse hands that are more than willing to get in there with me.

as for the suckout, yes, he hit a 3 outer on the river, but he got there because of the small bets you made. granted, he made a pretty terrible call on the turn, but thats besides the point. dont allow him to get to the river and beat you. good luck in future toureys [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

SNOWBALL138 · #4 03-07-2005, 08:44 AM

You write that after an ace flops, u can't bet KK?

Granted, at lower limit SNG some players DO play very bad aces like A-9 to a preflop raise. So, at these levels, it IS more likely that someone WILL have an ace. HOWEVER, people also bleed a lot of chips by playing other bad cards to a preflop raise, so it is NOT probable that they have the ace.

Listen: Most people "read" every preflop raiser for AK. Thats why my bullets and cowboys can get heavy preflop action from an underpair. Not betting the flop is like announcing to everyone that they have a right to steal the pot from you.

Thats like saying after you hit nothing with AK you don't bet. Also: What do you do with JJ when a Q, K, OR an ace flops?

If you are heads up or if there are only 2 other players, it is mandatory to bet the flop when you raised preflop in this situation.

Always remember that ANY unpaired hand (16/7 hands) does not pair the flop SEVENTY percent of the time. Thats my favorite poker stat. I think smart continuation bets combined with the ability to quit a pot when you feel that you are getting called by a strong hand is really vital to playing SNGs.

EarlCat · #5 03-07-2005, 12:41 PM

Don't slowplay your kings with so many people still at the table. You only want one or two players in the pot with you.

[ QUOTE ]
as for the suckout, yes, he hit a 3 outer on the river, but he got there because of the small bets you made.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had an inside straight draw too. He didn't quite have the pot odds to call, but the raise on the turn wasn't near enough to stop him, let alone someone who might have been on a flush draw--a big possibility with a double suited board. Make people pay for their draws.

curtains · #6 03-07-2005, 07:43 AM

Your bets and raises are too small. Just because you have a big hand, doesnt mean you should try to price everyone into the hand. Continue to do this and you will experience a lot of "bad beats".

I would raise to about 75-100 preflop personallly. You can get away with less of course, but I think that raising to 30 is just poor form.

On the flop you didn't protect your hand nearly enough. The pot is too big and your hand isn't that strong, to try to price people in with a 65 chip bet.

Jman28 · #7 03-07-2005, 07:47 AM

You need to be raising more. Not just to protect your hand from weak Aces, but from flush draws as well.

There are two hearts on the flop, and two diamonds by the turn. You need to be betting much closer to the size of the pot.

-Jman28

Fredrik · #8 03-07-2005, 11:40 AM

Thanks for all the tips. I suspected that I didn't raise enough.

My big problem is that all the theory I've studied have been about limit hold'em. I have an idea what cards to play; but not how to play them in NL.

As a sidenote, I later got K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the same tournament, raised two BB and everyone folded to me.