Gigabet's Dilemma vs Pushbotting : Worth it?

K, I've just finished reading Gigabet's Theory of Stack Sizes (the post concerning the Q3 hand, http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1 )
and I think I grasp what he's saying: When you have a stack that is only a decent portion above the average mark, and not yet big enough to dominate the table, it is worth it to take small-sized -EV gambles to try and reach a big enough stack to dominate.

I understand this completely, but it has me wondering: At level 4, in the general Pushbot-style play (at PP), if your stack is around 1250-1800, you're ahead of average, maybe even chipleader, but not yet at a position of dominance. GIVEN that you believe yourself the better player at the table, is it worth it to put Gigabet's Stack Size theory into play?

I can see one objection being that if you're multi-tabling you cant take the time to make these decisions, but I think that after time they could become second nature. However, given the rate of blind increase and the general nature of PP SNGs/PS turbos, is it worth it?

If so, at what level of buy-in (or does it matter).

Im still semi-not sober, so I hope this isnt just pointless rambling.

Thanks for listening.

[Myst]

You are partly right. You only take -EV gambles if the resulting loss doesnt affect your stack's current stack's style of play, but the resulting win will allow you to dominate the table.

And dont call it pushbot style of play. If it was so easy and automatic, nobody would be asking those "Was I right to push questions all the time."

The only reason I say that is that at the lower levels I play at, damn near everyone has accepted the AleoMagus styled playbook, and raptor calls it pushbot.

Not meant to imply that either Im a genious, or poker is easy (although the 11s and 22s are fairly brainless after a while).

[microbet]

You are trying to learn basic SNG strategy right? Forget that post and maybe come back to it in a while.

That's my advice, for what it's worth.

actually I've played a ton of sngs. I just tried to reinvent the wheel and forget all I knew.

but gigabet's post inspired me.

so I guess you're implying taht I missed something? or that Im completely off?

please elaborate, I thought I understood his point.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand this completely, but it has me wondering: At level 4, in the general Pushbot-style play (at PP), if your stack is around 1250-1800, you're ahead of average, maybe even chipleader, but not yet at a position of dominance. GIVEN that you believe yourself the better player at the table, is it worth it to put Gigabet's Stack Size theory into play?


[/ QUOTE ]

Your advantage around the bubble should be much greater than Gig's advantage in his games on the bubble. The way to exploit this is to take the many, many +EV situations that you're presented, not take a -EV one in search of artificially creating +EV situations down the line.

For the most part, Gig's opponents (215s, step 5s, etc.) play a solid, aggressive bubble where getting a large stack is very important. In the 8k chip games, this simply isn't the case. With a decent understanding of all-in prices and SNGPT, you'll already have the advantage over them, no matter what your stack is.

[microbet]

Well, since you asked about pushbotting I didn't think you had played that many. Maybe you are ready for Block Theory. Still, if you aren't pretty sure you understand the basics I think you are spending time going after a little bit of ROI and ignoring a big chunk.

This isn't necessarily directed at you, but here is the outline of the SNG course, IMHO:

1. Rules of Poker.
2. Odds (hands, pot, implied, reverse-implied)
3. cEV calcs
4. Tournament theory ICM $EV calcs
5. SNG powertools
6. Aleo guide
7. Play for quite a while and post hands here when you get confused. Work out some basic post flop play.
8. Keep analyzing your game and reading here and slowly loosen up a little as your post flop game improves.

That's as far as I've gotten, so I don't know what comes next. I think Block theory is like step 12 or something.

You can probably bump the Aleo guide up after 2 and just start playing while you are learning.

[SlackerMcFly]

[ QUOTE ]
When you have a stack that is only a decent portion above the average mark, and not yet big enough to dominate the table, it is worth it to take small-sized -EV gambles to try and reach a big enough stack to dominate.

I understand this completely

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you don't (and neither do I).

Position and table image plays a major part in Giga's concept. If you were to apply your understanding of the post in every single hand at any given level or buy-in, you would be miserable.

Think of your "extra chips" as something that could scare off a player to your left and/or make a pusher think twice.

If the push is too small to matter (perhaps twice your extra chips), then you are in a position of strength.

If the players to follow have less than or equal to double your extra chips..... You are in an very powerful position and can take -EV chances with your cards.

In my mind, the chip ratio plays a most important role post-flop and on the turn. Finding opportunities to exploit your edge will come most often when you see the flop cheaply and have position. Every good player will do this, but most will not identify the times where "chip modeling" can be used to their advantage.

Money in the bank earning zero interest is money wasted. Put your extra chips to work when it makes sense to do so.

Semi-SoberMcSlack

micro, this is how I want to relearn it all... skipping aleo's and basic abc stuff though.

I got good enough to win over 5k sngs... but never really learned bubble analysis, based on hard ICM and cEV numbers.

Im hijacking my own thread, but since the faq doesnt include all of those, would it be worth it to attempt a sticky along those lines? I always find it helps me learn if I have a reason to pull all of it up.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you have a stack that is only a decent portion above the average mark, and not yet big enough to dominate the table, it is worth it to take small-sized -EV gambles to try and reach a big enough stack to dominate.

I understand this completely

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you don't (and neither do I).

Position and table image plays a major part in Giga's concept. If you were to apply your understanding of the post in every single hand at any given level or buy-in, you would be miserable.

Think of your "extra chips" as something that could scare off a player to your left and/or make a pusher think twice.

If the push is too small to matter (perhaps twice your extra chips), then you are in a position of strength.

If the players to follow have less than or equal to double your extra chips..... You are in an very powerful position and can take -EV chances with your cards.

In my mind, the chip ratio plays a most important role post-flop and on the turn. Finding opportunities to exploit your edge will come most often when you see the flop cheaply and have position. Every good player will do this, but most will not identify the times where "chip modeling" can be used to their advantage.

Money in the bank earning zero interest is money wasted. Put your extra chips to work when it makes sense to do so.

Semi-SoberMcSlack

[/ QUOTE ]

thats another facet of what I meant. and I didnt mean to come off as arrogant, with the section you bolded.
What I meant was that if my interpretation was true, I understood the concept completely.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I am also a semi-sober slacker... just not at all mcfly.