Is this too aggressive? PP 2/4

lightw1thoutheat · #1 11-25-2004, 02:42 AM

This was my first orbit, and i didn't have a note on the bb. Up to this point i hadn't seen him play a hand, which made me think that he was at least reasonably tight.
I'm wondering about the turn aggression, is this standard, or did i go way overboard? i was very confused as what to put him on. also, should i have bet out the flop? comments all the way please.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, Button calls.

River: (11.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

thanks
Light

ThePimpulator · #2 11-25-2004, 03:24 AM

I dont think you need to cap the turn. You gota figure him for at least a Jack if he 3bet it. And given your read you assume he has legit starting requirements so there is a reasonable chance you are out kicked.

TheMetetron · #3 11-25-2004, 03:30 AM

After the turn 3-bet, I go into call-down mode too. Also, I'm not entirely sure I attempt to check-raise here, I think if you are ahead, it's too likely he checks behind you.

john smith · #4 11-25-2004, 05:23 AM

like the other guys said, i wouldn't have capped the turn, since he could easily have a boat or at least a better kicker than a 10. everything else looks pretty good though, i hope you won the hand.

StellarWind · #5 11-25-2004, 12:44 PM

The turn 3-bet usually means a better jack at least. Time to stop. Actually my money is on a slowplayed set.

I don't like the turn checkraise without a read. One of the following usually happens:

1. Checkthrough.

2. A weaker hand bets and folds.

3. A better hand beats you up.

Your best chance here is to bet out and hope for calls on the turn and river.

lightw1thoutheat · #6 11-25-2004, 02:22 PM

thanks for the advice guys. I immediately regretted my turn play. Luckily for me he was way overplaying TT. after noting that and watching him play for a bit, he became an instabuddy. Turned out he loved to bluff raise or 3 bet the turn, which turned out to be very profitable over the session.
Another question: With this new information, given that if i check the turn to him he will bet, and if i c/r he will almost always 3 bet, should i cap the turn, or try to c/r the river?

Bob T. · #7 11-25-2004, 02:37 PM

I think you can raise preflop for value.

I don't understand why you tried to checkraise the turn. This seems like FPS to me. Why not bet out right now, and if you get raised, I think three betting would be reasonable. After you do checkraise the turn, and you get threebet, what do you think he has, and what do you think he thinks you have? I think you are probably behind, and you were overplaying your hand at this point in time.

Given the turn action, I think that you should be happy to get out of the river for one bet.

Bob T. · #8 11-25-2004, 02:39 PM

In that case, capping the turn is probably right. He might be three betting/ and planning on checking the river through. Your way gets you more bets when you are ahead.

Little Fishy · #9 11-25-2004, 02:57 PM

I agree with bob that given your current read capping the turn will earn you more bets on your winners.

what i find interesting about this hand is that villain become more aggro when the 1 over card to his pair coupled on the board. this means that he realized that there was less of a chance that you had a jack in your hand. I've noticed this kind of play before with players who are just starting to study the books. My question is, have you found this to be the case with this particular player? is he less likely to throw away second pair if the only overcards on the board are paired??

-Little Fish

Louie Landale · #10 11-25-2004, 03:06 PM

You are not thinking about what sorts of hand he can have; you seem to be only thinking about the absolute strength of your hand, 3-Jacks. This is a LOT different situation than had you JJ board J874.

So you have JT board JJ86 and the opponent 3-bets. What does he have? Its VERY unlikely to be JacksUp or even AcesUp. If he has a J he can have an AKQ to beat you, but you only realistically beat J9.

You can 4-bet if he's playing lots of hands and has no clue, or if he thinks JsUp is a good hand for this situation. There are certainly folks against whome you should call figuring to check-fold the river if you don't hit; knowing he's already full.

Yes, too aggressive.

- Louie