TPTK raised on river

jdl22 · #1 10-22-2005, 01:29 PM

Villain is about a 50/10 passive postflop. I know a big hole in my game is being raised on the turn or river. This hand I'm not sure if I should call or 3 bet after getting raised.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $2.
UTG (poster) checks, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (5 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

stripsqueez · #2 10-22-2005, 05:12 PM

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I know a big hole in my game is being raised on the turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think a more true statement might be that you feel like a big hole in your game is being raised on the turn and river

the biggest mistake in such spots would be folding too much - its hard to make a big mistake calling too much

i do ok by simply identifying the guys who always have the goods when they raise me in spots like this hand and your JJ hand - that obviously means its a decision best made sitting at the table and generally hard to categorise by reference to the usual player stereotypes used in an interent forum

i like call

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

MattC · #3 10-22-2005, 05:18 PM

i always call this down but i find almost never am i still winning this hand, always 2 pair. I am unsure as well, but calling cant be too wrong can it?

joker122 · #4 10-22-2005, 05:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know a big hole in my game is being raised on the turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i have this problem too.

Surfbullet · #5 10-22-2005, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think a more true statement might be that you feel like a big hole in your game is being raised on the turn and river

the biggest mistake in such spots would be folding too much - its hard to make a big mistake calling too much

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with both these assertions...but I think I think the "folding too much is a big mistake on the river" is a fallacy... at aggressive games where players will pick up on it + exploit it, sure. But in low limit games these loose/passive players they have the goods 90%+ of the time. He doesn't know you are folding TPTK, you could be folding 77 or AT.

The risk of folding too much applies more to the turn, especially HU IMHO. Even passive players decide to raise weird draws and 1 pair hands often enough to call - folding TP on the turn without HEAVY action pf + flop would be incorrect most times IMO.

I'd love to hear more on this, because I think calling raises on the river hurt my w/r significantly at low limits and slowed my rise through the limits...it's something I've given more and more thought to recently.

Surf

#6 10-22-2005, 06:30 PM

Often the 50/10 players arent very smart, and will try silly things like calling to the river with midpair and raising it.

Sure they are generally passive, but their play as a whole is generally poor too.

Dont feel bad about calling the river raise. I wouldnt be surprised to see a weaker king here.

Danenania · #7 10-22-2005, 06:34 PM

I call this one without a more specific read. I see them do this with weak K's often enough even if it's never a bluff.

stripsqueez · #8 10-22-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with both these assertions...but I think I think the "folding too much is a big mistake on the river" is a fallacy... at aggressive games where players will pick up on it + exploit it, sure. But in low limit games these loose/passive players they have the goods 90%+ of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm confident i've made the same point about the difference between these spots in passive low limit games and aggro high limit games many times - its still a generalisation though - for what its worth i still play a bit in the low/mid limits as the mood takes me and whilst there are plenty more players who have aggression factors below .5 on the turn and river there is still a large number who get sick of me betting all the time and start taking shots at me with crap - i think "fallacy" is harsh

for me it all comes down to having a read or perhaps more particularly knowing your chook

the other thing i can usefully say is that i have seen several players with pokertracker stats that say they call down way way more than would be advocated in this forum and they are comfortably beating the game - of-course there are a bunch of conditions that go with such a player but the general success of that style argues that folding too much is an indictable offence and calling down a misdemeanour - certainly folding too much is the hallmark of weak tight and thats the most common disease experienced by players posting in this forum

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Surfbullet · #9 10-23-2005, 02:04 PM

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i think "fallacy" is harsh

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You're right, and I wasn't trying to imply that what you said was a fallacy, moreso what I believed and had been following for quite some time was a fallacy...basically that it's okay to not fold TPTK on the river HU to a raise.

[ QUOTE ]

for me it all comes down to having a read or perhaps more particularly knowing your chook

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right - and you said in a previous post that there are some players that you would fold this against...it's important for those reading the forum to recognize that this isn't carte blanche to call down TP to a river raise, we stil have to play poker and analyze the odds the pot is laying us, the likelihood of him having a worse hand, and the likelihood of a bluff(can he make it this far with a bluffing hand? how? why would he think a bluff would work? If we've folded to river raises previously we should call. If we've 3bet the nuts 2 rivers in a row we should consider folding.)

Surf