77 UTG, weak-tight table

[DavidC]

It's x-skin NLHE $25.

I'm in utg with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I raise to $1.

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2, who's been pretty tight so far (this is 3rd orbit and I haven't really seen much of anyone, particularly not this guy, but he's been sitting at the table longer than I have and he has about 1.6 buy-ins in his stack (to my 1.000032 (roughly)).

He re-raises to 1.75 (min re-raises).

It's folded back to me. I note stack-sizes and call.

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Flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, he checks.

Turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet $1.50 into a $3.85 pot...

Thoughts?

(Edit: One of the problem with weak-tight tables is that you have a tough time making reads. I'm not even 100% sure that it's a weak-tight table, but not many pots are contested heavily, so... I guess that makes it weak-tight, right? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[kitaristi0]

An argument could be made for just calling PF. Otherwise seems standard. Maybe bet more like $2-$2.50.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
An argument could be made for just calling PF. Otherwise seems standard. Maybe bet more like $2-$2.50.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what I've been thinking about PFRs recently:

HU in the SB if I raise I raise to 2bb, I never call.

In a steal position up to CO I open at 3bb.

If I'm opening in any other position I open at 4bb.

If I'm isolating I raise to 4bb + 1 per limper.

If I'm re-raising... I'm not sure just yet.

How does that sound so far, though?

FWIW, my standard open here is $1... I'm not comfortable with adjusting my raise sizes based on my hand strength right now.

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, my standard open here is $1... I'm not comfortable with adjusting my raise sizes based on my hand strength right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he really means to adjust your raise amount...but that you don't have to raise. I wouldn't raise 77 in UTG, I'd be playing it just for set value really. It may be a tight table...but there's a good chance that you'll get called and see over cards.

If you're going to bet on the turn, I think you should be betting more than half the pot. Otherwise he has 3:1 odds, and can call with alot of hands.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, my standard open here is $1... I'm not comfortable with adjusting my raise sizes based on my hand strength right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he really means to adjust your raise amount...but that you don't have to raise. I wouldn't raise 77 in UTG, I'd be playing it just for set value really. It may be a tight table...but there's a good chance that you'll get called and see over cards.

If you're going to bet on the turn, I think you should be betting more than half the pot. Otherwise he has 3:1 odds, and can call with alot of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, yes, he's definitely talking about betting amounts on the flop and he does recommend calling pf... I'm a little tired.

I'm not 100% sure what the PFR% was on this table, though (av pfr per player, not hand % being raised).

Any idea what % I'd look for before I started limping with 77 utg?

--Dave.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, my standard open here is $1... I'm not comfortable with adjusting my raise sizes based on my hand strength right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he really means to adjust your raise amount...but that you don't have to raise. I wouldn't raise 77 in UTG, I'd be playing it just for set value really. It may be a tight table...but there's a good chance that you'll get called and see over cards.

If you're going to bet on the turn, I think you should be betting more than half the pot. Otherwise he has 3:1 odds, and can call with alot of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, what kinds of hands are calling me on the turn, if he does call?

(However, both of you guys said to bet more, so you're probably right... I'm just curious about why you guys suggest betting 2-2.5 instead of 1.5.)
--Dave.

[4_2_it]

I like your line. At this level I really don't like raising 77 UTG because 1)I am OOP 2)you won't thin the field that much, and 3)overcards are sure to hit. Having said that, I will raise any PP from any position if I think I can get heads up with a maniac.

I might bet a little more on the turn because I want to get any overcards, 8's or 9 with a bad kicker to fold. You don't want to build this pot, you want to take it down now. If he calls and you hit the river your action is probably dead anyway.

If called I plan to c/c if unimproved on the river.

edit - I play 6-max

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, my standard open here is $1... I'm not comfortable with adjusting my raise sizes based on my hand strength right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he really means to adjust your raise amount...but that you don't have to raise. I wouldn't raise 77 in UTG, I'd be playing it just for set value really. It may be a tight table...but there's a good chance that you'll get called and see over cards.

If you're going to bet on the turn, I think you should be betting more than half the pot. Otherwise he has 3:1 odds, and can call with alot of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, yes, he's definitely talking about betting amounts on the flop and he does recommend calling pf... I'm a little tired.

I'm not 100% sure what the PFR% was on this table, though (av pfr per player, not hand % being raised).

Any idea what % I'd look for before I started limping with 77 utg?

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising 77 UTG in a full ring game is just asking to lose money in the long run. Almost every hand that calls you will be coinflip with position or have you crushed. Position here is key, since every flop that doesn't contain a 7 is going to look scary OOP.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I might bet a little more on the turn because I want to get any overcards, 8's or 9 with a bad kicker to fold. You don't want to build this pot, you want to take it down now. If he calls and you hit the river your action is probably dead anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy re-raised me, so I'm not putting him on a pair of 9's with a decent kicker. I may be reading a little too much into his reraise, but I'm putting him on AA-TT, AK,AQs, leaning towards AA-JJ, AK. I could be WAY wrong about this, though.

So, when he checks through the flop I'm a little suspicious. I was originally going to checkraise a significant amount on the flop and probably release vs a push.

Alternatively, depending on what he bet out on the flop (I forget what the board was but I don't think it had a flush draw and it didn't really line up with any cards that I may have held), I could just call. This would pretty much define my hand as a weak pair or AK. If he got jiggy on the turn, that would either mean that he was blasting at me with a better pair or trying to push me out of "my split"... it gets a little tougher to decide what he's got, but there's probably a good chance that if he bets twice he has a pair. I'm not sure...

I'd say that the best strategy would be to checkraise maybe 60% and check-call maybe 40%, regardless of whether I have AK,AQ,77,or QQ.

But I don't really know, as I don't play this game that much. Specifically, I'd ordinarily leave this table, but it's only NLHE $25, and I'm paying cheap tuition by staying here.

So, the reason that I bet out about half the pot on the turn is that he's either crushing me or I'm crushing him at this point, and half the pot should be enough to overcharge AK if he does decide to play.

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Rest of the hand.

Pot is $3 on the turn: I bet $1.5 and he calls. Pot is $6.

River Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I check-call half pot.

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Edit: If I bet out on the flop, what sorts of lines am I taking if I get raised or called?

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--Dave.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising 77 UTG in a full ring game is just asking to lose money in the long run. Almost every hand that calls you will be coinflip with position or have you crushed. Position here is key, since every flop that doesn't contain a 7 is going to look scary OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things:
1) What if table vpip was 5%?
2) What if table vpip was 15%, but wsd was only 25%?

However, I really do agree that boards without a 7 DO look scary when you're OOP. So, maybe raising is pretty bad, because I'm seldom going to find myself at a table with vpip 5% or wsd 25%...

However, once we've established that you should not raise 77 UTG at a full ring game, we need to decide if we should be folding or calling with it. That's probably the most important question now. So I'll repeat what I'd asked:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not 100% sure what the PFR% was on this table, though (av pfr per player, not hand % being raised).

Any idea what % I'd look for before I started limping with 77 utg?


[/ QUOTE ]

My opinion is that this was probably a raise or fold situation, and so far people are looking to fold rather than raise. I'm really really hesitant about limping with 77 UTG at this particular table, since most pots were raised and the action on the flop was so weak (i.e. if I hit my set I'd be unlikely to have enough implied odds to make it worth chasing).

Also, I refuse to leave the table until I'm tired or bored. I'm not looking to make money at this particular table, but to learn to play optimally at this type of table.

--Dave.