3 part preflop quiz

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call
Call
Call

Anyone who says fold 55 here is not thinking about this right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Think about it this way....

You limp A5s UTG and UTG+1 raises. Everyone else folds. I bet that you make this call everytime getting just 4:1. If you make that call, calling in this spot is a no brainer.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

hey-
i don't think that direct analogy is correct - because we're thinking about implied odds here when calling multiple bets. i know you already know this, but i'm just pointing it out for everyone else:

If you have Axs in EP and limp and someone behind raises, and everyone folds, yes - you call getting 4:1. But when we are calling 2 more prelop in the original case, even though the immediate pot odds are, say 8:1, they are actually 16:2, which means if we are short on odds we have to make up double the number of SBs... (though i'm not saying we shouldn't call - in fact, i'm not sure why i'm posting this...)

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right that if we're short on odds pre-flop and have to call two bets here we have to make up more bets later. But IMO that is countered by the fact we have multiple opponents and thus more opportunity to get more bets in post-flop. Plus with the pretty good (perceived) odds we're getting post-flop, I don't think we have to make up much on later streets.

[numeri]

[posting in the dark]

I'm coming in a little late here, but I muck QJs and A5s. 55 will be fine if we hit our set. A5s would be going for the flush only - too expensive. The high-card value of QJs just went out the window with a raise and then 3-bet from the BB.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[posting in the dark]

I'm coming in a little late here, but I muck QJs and A5s. 55 will be fine if we hit our set. A5s would be going for the flush only - too expensive. The high-card value of QJs just went out the window with a raise and then 3-bet from the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with two-pair, trips and straight?

[istewart]

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Shill.

[Shillx]

Yeah exactly, even if you are sure that someone has a big hand. Combatting aces with something like QJs isn't all that bad of a proposition since our equity will be high if we flop a big draw. The hands that you really need to avoid playing (even getting 8:1) are things like AJo. You have little chance of making a straight, can't flop a flush or flush draw and are almost surely dominated from all sides (your only hope is to make trip jacks).

Brad

[droolie]

call, call, call. All three hands can easily crack the hands we're afraid of. A5s is marginal but I still call it hoping to flop a decent draw. Implied odds are very strong in these situations.

[car ramrod]

DMBFan23 can you give me some insight into why you think Axs is such an overrated hand. I play mainly 1/2 6max and I tend to play them a lot.

I just recently began folding A4s - A2s in early position, but its hard for me still. Not sure why, I guess I like the flush possibilities.

Should I always fold these hands against a raise? Do they play better against many limpers or does that matter? I think they have some good equity considering flush, top pair can win, 2 pair possiblities. Is it just a math game, figuring my equity, against money in the pot, or money expected to make it to the pot?

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call
Call
Call

Anyone who says fold 55 here is not thinking about this right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Think about it this way....

You limp A5s UTG and UTG+1 raises. Everyone else folds. I bet that you make this call everytime getting just 4:1. If you make that call, calling in this spot is a no brainer.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

hey-
i don't think that direct analogy is correct - because we're thinking about implied odds here when calling multiple bets. i know you already know this, but i'm just pointing it out for everyone else:

If you have Axs in EP and limp and someone behind raises, and everyone folds, yes - you call getting 4:1. But when we are calling 2 more prelop in the original case, even though the immediate pot odds are, say 8:1, they are actually 16:2, which means if we are short on odds we have to make up double the number of SBs... (though i'm not saying we shouldn't call - in fact, i'm not sure why i'm posting this...)

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right that if we're short on odds pre-flop and have to call two bets here we have to make up more bets later. But IMO that is countered by the fact we have multiple opponents and thus more opportunity to get more bets in post-flop. Plus with the pretty good (perceived) odds we're getting post-flop, I don't think we have to make up much on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. in the case of the OP, we aren't short on odds, and you are correct that we have multiple opponents and a high likelyhood of making back a ton of bets (ie, getting lots of action if we hit).

i was just being dogmatic and pointing out that when calling multiple bets preflop, we can't just always reduce our immediate pot odds and assume we are close enough if we are short since we need to account for double the bets...

[DMBFan23]

well in 6 max games things are a little different, for example in MP3 in a full ring game I'm probably opening with A5s+, which is kind of the same as being UTG+1 in 6max - but I'm usually raising it to knock out LP players and maybe steal blinds.

I almost always muck Axs to a raise (we're talking about crappy x's here), but versus a raise and some loose coldcallers you can see a flop sometimes if you're on the button and enough players have come in.

I find they play best in loose games, where you will get paid out the yin yang with flush draws, but can still make a decent pair/2pair as a fallback - that's what seperates them from hands like 73s.

I just find that at 3/6 I am too often dominated, and unless you're likely to get multiway action you're check folding a lot of flops and not getting paid as much on the good ones, and you're often heads up or 3 way in a raised pot where even if you do have the best hand with A high, he has position and initiative and might have you dominated anyway.

in loose passive games, you'll get charged less when behind and make more when youre ahead - having more players in to contribute to your flush draw is straight bling, so they become pretty good at like .5/1 or at some 1/2 6max games

[sexypanda]

I call all of these.

But just to play devil's advocate for a second, I haven't seen anyone post about the fact that with a raise, a coldcall and a 3-bet after you there a very very very likely chance that you're dominated when your holding QJ or A5. It's also very very likely that some cards you need are already in your opponents hands, therefore serverly reducing the odds of flopping what you need. Finally, someone mentioned that we're way out of position, which is also something to really take into consideration. With all these factors, I don't think calling with QJ or A5 are easy calls by any means.

(Edited to make sense)