Strong flush draw and overcards

[gmandan]

Hand #1

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (11.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

I'm wondering if I should have 3-bet the flop with such a strong draw and maybe build the pot. It seems like UTG+1 has no plans of slowing down, but how should I play the turn if the action is checked to me? Would betting still be profitable or should I take a free card in the case that I don't make my flush on the turn?

*************************

Hand #2

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

I'm not sure if this fold was too tight. I'm just having some trouble dealing with overcards on the flop. The pot and field were small so I thought anything but a fold would not be worth the bets that I might put into this hand.

[Dave G.]

Hand 1: Played fine. You don't want to 3-bet this flop because that risks pushing BB out of the hand by making him face 2. You have position on him so you don't really want him going anywhere, he might keep calling on the turn.

Hand 2: Raise the flop. The pot is big enough to go for your overcards and you'd love to buy the button here, and potentially pickup a free card on the turn if you want it.

If you do hit an A or K, you are fairly likely to have the best hand on this drawless board. Getting 7.5:1, folding this flop is a fairly big error. Raising is better than calling because it might buy you position and a free look at the river.

[Highn]

#1

I would 3-bet the flop, and take the free card on the turn.

#2

I'de raise on the flop.

edit: Why would you not want to drive BB out in hand 1? You might also win this pot when you hit an overcard and I don't think you want BB there to be able to draw out on you.

[Fantam]

<font color="black">Hand #1.</font>

You were correct to not 3-bet the flop.

Your chance of making the nut flush by the river were ~ 2:1, so you needed at least 3 opponents to still be in the hand to give you a sufficient equity edge to make further flop bets profitable.

If the turn had been checked to you, you should have taken a free card. The chances of making your flush on the river had now become ~ 4:1, so you would have needed 5 opponents to call a turn bet to make it profitable.

<font color="black">Hand #2.</font>

I think it was worth calling the flop bet to see the turn.

BB was probably betting with either top pair or a straight draw. The pot was offering 7.5:1 to call, and the chance of your spiking an A or K was about 6.5:1.

On the turn, it probably would have been best to fold to a further bet from BB.

The 6 made it possible for BB to have made a straight leaving you drawing dead. Also if BB only had top pair, your odds of pairing your A or K were now 7:1 and the pot was small.

Finally another reason for considering folding on the turn is that a lot of players like to play hands like Ax.

That increases the chance that BB could have been betting with a hand like A2,A5 or A8. Then if you had spiked your A on the river, you would have been behind to his 2 pair.

[outofstep]

Why not 3 bet the flop? You have a great draw with a nut flush draw and two overcards. The overcards are vunerable outs and with such a large pot knocking out the BB is a great idea if it increases your chance to win the pot. Man do I sound like Ed Miller.

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not 3 bet the flop? You have a great draw with a nut flush draw and two overcards. The overcards are vunerable outs and with such a large pot knocking out the BB is a great idea if it increases your chance to win the pot. Man do I sound like Ed Miller.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you noticed your overcards are dominated by the PF raiser if he has AA,QQ or AK. You will also still be behind if you spike your A or Q and he has JJ.

The only reasonable PF raising hands that UTG might have, that you beat if you pair your A or Q are KK or TT, so you should heavily discount your outs to top pair.

Also it is likely that BB is going to be contributing some dead money in this hand, so you want to keep him in to help build up the pot, for the times you make your flush.

BB is probably calling with something like Jx, a smaller pocket pair, a weaker flush draw or a straight draw.

It is unlikely that he would have a better kicker (or higher pair) to beat us if we paired either our A or Q, so we dont really improve our chances of winning the pot if we drive him out.

[Highn]

Even if UTG+1 has us dominated we still need to protect our hand vs BB. (the pot is allready quite big, I wouldn't bother with building a bigger one). Besides that 3-betting the flop might buy us a free card on the turn.

edit: Don't you think he would cap pre-flop with AA or QQ? If he has us dominated it's probably with AJ. As long as I don't have a read on UTG+1 I assume the Ace and Queen are good.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you not want to drive BB out in hand 1? You might also win this pot when you hit an overcard and I don't think you want BB there to be able to draw out on you.


[/ QUOTE ]
I may be overanalyzing but the check raise from UTG+X makes my overcards less appealing and I would want everyone in for my monster flush draw.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if UTG+1 has us dominated we still need to protect our hand vs BB. (the pot is allready quite big, I wouldn't bother with building a bigger one). Besides that 3-betting the flop might buy us a free card on the turn.

edit: Don't you think he would cap pre-flop with AA or QQ? If he has us dominated it's probably with AJ. As long as I don't have a read on UTG+1 I assume the Ace and Queen are good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be absurd. If you're chasing, why do you need to protect your hand? You're not cleaning up outs for yourself (flush outs are all good). Your hand won't be vulernable to redraws if you hit it. He's also getting right around 8:1 to chase a 6-outer, so you don't really protect your ace-high that well anyway.

Raising for a "who knows - maybe a free card" is silly. You need more than that possibility to make 3-betting worth while here. Clark had a good post a long time ago discussing this.

AK is reasonable because not everybody caps it OOP. And you can't shut the door to AA-QQ because some players like to get fancy with it. Against an unknown, you've got to keep your mind open. You would really prefer to hit your queen here, and not your ace. I would discount the ace outs to 1 and keep the queen outs at 2.