Trying to learn PLO

[CCass]

I have been dabbling with PLO on Stars, and have good success on weak tables, but I have gotten killed a couple of times when my table selection isn't good.

Last night I sat down at a $.50/$1 table where I considered several of the players decent but not great, when the following hand came up.

UTG and UTG+1 fold, two callers, I raise to $5 with KhKdTd8d, cut-off calls, button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, and next guy raises to $31. I call, as does UTG+2. 3 to the flop for $103.

Flop is 5s, 4h, Ks. UTG+2 checks, re-raiser goes all-in for $61.90. I push my remaining stack ($119.75), which puts UTG+2 all-in also, and he calls.

The results of the hand don't matter, as my pre-flop call, and my push on the flop are what I am interested in. How poorly did I play this? I had the best hand post-flop, but I was certainly vulnerable.

Any comments/criticisms would be appreciated.

[Filip]

I am not that fund of that the call pre-flop after the pot reraise.
That smells like AA, but it strongly depends on the level of the players at the table.

The flop play is pretty straight forward i think. You have the best hand here and if the re-raiser had not bet i would bet pot. I dont think that your action, calling or raising, will be effect if
UTG+2 folds or calls since a call in your case will almost signal more strength then a raise.

I would put the players on hands like these:
re-raiser: As Ax Xs Xx (31%)
UTG+2: 6x 7x 8x 9x (23%)

Meaning that you would be a 46% favourite with a strong redraw if the flush/str8 came on the turn.


/F

[Acesover8s]

Your initial raise is debatable and depends on the character of the table. Your raise is good if there are decent stacks and they are going to call OR if you have a good chance to get it heads up and pick up the pot on most flops. The raise is NOT good if you're going to play against a small field that isn't likely to pay you off if you hit.

The reasons to raise preflop in PLO are:
#1: To build a pot when your hand is a favorite.
#2: To cause opponents to misjudge your hand or misplay theirs post-flop.
#3: To clean up your flush outs with strong drawing hands (like 9TJQds).

When you're reraised you must realize that 99% of the time you are looking at aces. You have an EASY fold unless both you and your opponent have stack sizes equal to 8.5x the current bet to you minus whats in the pot. And that is IFF you know your opponent will go broke with aces on a K-high flop and you won't go broke with your kings on an 222 flop.

Notice you can call with much more ease with the much-underrated (but much loved by me) 2 pair hand.

[bugstud]

or repot the 2 pair, as the case may be [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[CCass]

I did assume that the pre-flop re-raiser had aces, and he had AdAcXcX. I also put the other played on a straight or flush draw post flop, and he had a straight draw.

From what I am reading, I should have folded to the pot sized raise pre-flop, assuming I thought it meant Aces (which I did). But after making top set on the flop, I should get the money in even if there were straight and or flush draws out against me.

[Filip]

[ QUOTE ]
I did assume that the pre-flop re-raiser had aces, and he had AdAcXcX. I also put the other played on a straight or flush draw post flop, and he had a straight draw.

From what I am reading, I should have folded to the pot sized raise pre-flop, assuming I thought it meant Aces (which I did). But after making top set on the flop, I should get the money in even if there were straight and or flush draws out against me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is my opinion. Since the times you arnt up agaisnt flush or str8 draws are few.

[sherbert]

Aces

I liked your post, but I was just curious - could you explain why the stack size needs to be 8-1/2 times the size of the bet less money in the pot. I was trying to figure the maths and erm, I'm not doing too well.

That's if the holder of the Kings is about 2.3-to-1 vs two players, one of which has crappy aces.

Thanks.

PS - I'm aware that you are 7.something-to-1 against flopping a King.

[Acesover8s]

Pardon, I made a mistake, the correct number should be 7.333 instead of 8.5.

This is based on the assumption that you will always check and fold on the flop if you do not hit a set, I am ignoring straights, flushes, and hitting two-pair or better with your side cards.

It is also under the assumption that you will always get your opponent all in on the flop if you do hit a set no matter the size of the stack.

All of these assumptions require a bit much that can be expected in a typical game, but still illustrate the fact that you would need fairly large stacks to call the raise. The larger the stacks the better it is.

The math is as follows:

When it comes back to him preflop he has to call 26$ to win the potential $103 in the pot (or more likely 77$ if UTG+2 doesn't come in.)

Our hero is now contributing $26 to win $77 of "other" money. With out assumptions that he will fit-or-fold on the flop he needs to get at least 7.33-1 on this money or $191 total on his $26 bet in order to break even EV-wise.

Take the $191-$77 = 118$. So, theoretically, if his opponent and he have $118 in their stacks the call is break-even. The bigger the stacks the more profitable the call becomes. This requires both players to start with stacks of $149 minimum.

This is the line I think through when contemplating calls like this. Although, generally I would require stacks much larger in order to make this call simply because many times you will not get all of your opponents stack and other times you may lose to a secondary draw.

It is entirely possible that my logic or maths are flawed.

Guy? Dogs? Anybody want to pick me apart?

[sherbert]

OK, that's what I was thinking you were thinking. Anyway, I'm going to disagree on this one. I think the call PF by the Kings was perfectly sound - as you can't remove the straights/flushes/two pair combos from the equation. That's why he's only a 2.3-to-1 dog preflop. If it was just a hold 'em scenario then yes, the Aces are a monster fave. over any other pair, which is why you need the implied odds of hitting a set to justify a call.

That's not the case in Omaha. Seems like the Kings has an overlay for this sort of money, given that he is calling $26 to win $103 - or 4-to-1.
And the stack sizes seem enough to call on that basis as well. I'd call - otherwise you'd be leaving too much money on the table folding here. Although the bigger the stacks the better.

[CrisBrown]

Hi aces,

I'm new to Omaha so I'm probably wrong, but I think the call decision maybe has as much to do with the other cards as with the KK? With a hand like KKQJds, there are more kinds of flops that are playable vs. AAxx, so maybe you don't need the flopped-set 8:1 implied odds. By contrast, with a three-flush KKT8, with only one flush possibility and a high likelihood of flopping only a gutshot draw ... I think the 8:1 implied odds are probably more reasonable.

Again, though, I really don't know anything yet. I'm just kinda voicing an idea and hoping people will explain where I'm wrong. *shrugs*

Cris