I am still interested in ball park PT stats for a winning player.

[steamboatin]

How tight preflop?

How much aggression?

What stats are the most important?

[Mendacious]

Limit or PL, full ring or short handed/ 6 max. Stakes?
I posted a screenshot some time ago of PTO when I was winning at a 20 or so BB/100 rate. That has declined substantially as I have moved up in limits, and had a horrible September.

Also, I think you will find that you can be a winning player with widely varied Agression, VPIP and to some degree even W$SD


Personally I shoot for a VPIP of around 25 agression over 1.5 and W$SD over 60. I think if you play this way you will be a fairly low variance winning player over time.

Right now after 70,000 hands of mostly full ring PLO8 over limits between $25 and $200 I am about 24.5/1.7/60. My BB/100 has slipped to 13. Ribbo, who is great, just ask him is at 33/1.6/50.

[steamboatin]

I am at 20% VPIP and i am starting to win a little now. I am not a winning Omaha player but I lost on a regular basis at first but I didn't even know what made a good starting hand and I couldn't even read the board.

I am learning the game but have no delusions regarding my current abilities. I am down $220 over almost 5,000 hands playing $.50-1 on Party and some on Hollywood poker. I am starting to have some winning sessions so overall, I think I am doing okay considering i began completely clueless.

[minttea]

I don't know what my VPIP is (I'm buying PTO later today), but I probably have about the same number of hands as you, mostly at .50/1, and I'm a statistically insignificant winner so far.

I think it's a good idea (and I'd really like to hear it if someone thinks I'm wrong) for players like us to play by the standard (pretty tight) hand guidelines that a lot of authors give for new players (most L08 websites have the list, I'm thinking of the one in Tenner & Krieger's book right now). At 20%, I'm guessing that's about what you're doing.

As far as the other stats, I doubt anyone here is going to have any good stats for a winning .50/1 player, because I don't think there are many .50/1 players here. But maybe you and I will in a month if we get enough hands in and we can compare.

[steamboatin]

when I first downloaded PT for holdem, I had a terrible shock. I believed that I was playing very tightly and I couldn't have been more mistaken. I was the loosest goose on the planet.

[Cooker]

I think the numbers for a winning player are going to be much different between PLO8 and limit play. I think you have to play much tighter preflop and on the flop at limit (moreso at low limit since you can never really win the pot by making a play). Since I began keeping track with PTO I haven't played any limit, so I don't really have my numbers handy, but my PLO8 numbers are in line with Mendacious's (maybe not quite as aggressive, but I am working on that). I wouldn't be surprised if you should only play about 20% of hands or so in limit.

[steamboatin]

I am playing limit but I find it really interesting that you can play looser on Pot Limit.

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
I am playing limit but I find it really interesting that you can play looser on Pot Limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is similar to holdem with decent players and deep stacks I think. If you are an excellent player you can play looser in NLHE than in limit against reasonable competition. You have huge implied odds to draw at weak hands and stack someone off. I think Doyle Brunson's NLHE strategy is pretty well suited for PLO8 at even the lower levels. This is especially true because you can steal pots, but are rarely even a 2 to 1 dog when you are called on a semibluff.

[Mendacious]

I think this is good advice for when you are learning a game. If nothing else, it lowers variance. While I have seen players who consistantly win with widely varying VPIPs, I think it takes a lot of skill to win consistantly with higher VPIPs, and you have to have a tremendous comfort level with the variance that goes with higher VPIPs at the level you are playing.

[minttea]

[ QUOTE ]
when I first downloaded PT for holdem, I had a terrible shock. I believed that I was playing very tightly and I couldn't have been more mistaken. I was the loosest goose on the planet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see what you mean, but I think it's easier in O8 than in hold'em to know - in a low limit game like the ones we play in, hand values don't change _nearly_ as much with position as in hold'em, so the rules are more rigid. Having less room for interpretation of the starting hand recommendations makes it more likely that you won't play looser than they suggest, I think. Would you ever play A367 with no suits? There might be a situation where a good player would, but if you go by Tenner & Krieger's chart you NEVER would. A hand of similar strength in hold'em would come with all sorts of positional caveats.

Someone who knows more than me correct me if I'm wrong about the position thing, please.