multitabling higher limits

[siegfriedandroy]

**i posted in the general forum, but would also greatly appreciate some informed feedback from some of you higher stakes, 15/30 or 30/60 multitablers who have moved up from nothing. Perhaps this doesnt belong here (flame away [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ), but I mostly read this forum and on the whole respect the quality of posts more here than on the lower limit forums (although there are some very good posters there as well). Anyway, I'd greatly appreciate any of your thoughts. Thanks, Siegfried
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Actually, it's not really a 'should i move up' post. I am going to move up- just want some tips on what to expect.

Been beating 4 tables of 2/4 for 2000 bb/100 (jk), and now have the roll for 5/10 or 10/20 if i so desired. Just want a brief summary (from winning players only) on what differences I can expect at 3/6, 5/10 and (not yet, but hopefully fairly soon) 10/20.

1) I suspect 3/6 should not be substantially different from 2/4- a little tighter, but still (hopefully) a good # of fish. What should I expect at 3/6 and how should I adjust?

2) How about 5/10 full? Differences, necessary adjustments?

3) I dont want to try 10/20 until I am sure I can beat 5/10 (dont want to risk $6k in the event im not good enough to beat this game), but would like a precursor on what to expect since i plan to be there soon. Is this game substantially tougher than the relatively easy 2/4 game? Ive observed a little bit and was not overly impressed. Tons of cold callers, a fish or two at every table, etc. This was only a brief, cursory observation period, though- im sure in reality the game is much tougher. Could some of you 10/20 or 15/30 pros compare and contrast the most obvious differences between my 2/4 game and the standard, run of the mill party 10/20? Any thoughts and advice on adjustments, etc will be greatly appreciated. Im sure I shorthanded play becomes a lot more important, for one. Anyway, I dont want to move up to this level unless im fairly sure i can beat it. but i wont know for sure if i can beat it till i try! Catch 22. Perhaps I will eventually try it, and move down if I lose 3k. that's why blackjack so far has a more special place in my heart than poker. in bj, you KNOW whether or not you can beat a game. not so in poker w/o actually taking the shot. at least that's my impression so far.

anyway, all thoughts appreciated, especially those of winning players who have already successfully made the move up from the trenches to the golden million dollar goldmines of 30/60 and above (jk- wish that were true).



**some seem to believe that shorthanded 3/6 and 5/10 is generally a better game than their full equivalents. Would most of you guys agree w/ that? How about at 10/20? Personally, the majority of my study has been geared toward beating full games (i primarily base my play around THFAP and SSHE). I have played a lot of low limit 1/2 short, but am definitely more confident in my full abilities. Would appreciate comments on party short v/ party full at these equivalent levels.

**Finally, a lot of you guys talk about 8 tabling party. How do you guys do this? 2 monitors right? One with party and one with a skin? Is this how it works? Also, my monitor doesnt allow 4 tables at a time. Would most of you agree that it is far better to invest in a monitor that will support this? I dont really mind jumping from table to table, but i guess eventually ill make the switch. from what ive read, though, it seems two of these superpower monitors can be fairly expensive. anyway, i think my ultimate plan is to 8 table the highest limit I can substantially beat for 1.5-2 bb/100. It seems obvious if you can beat 15/30 for 2bb, but 30/60 for only one, it would defiinitely be better (financially speaking) to stay at the 15/30 for variance reasons.

anyway, all thoughts welcome, but well informed thoughts from successful multitablers who have already moved up welcome more than the thoughts of others. wow, that was a shi*ty sentence!!

[Vaftrudner]

If I were you I'd try 6 handed 3-6 which is filled with complete clowns. I actually thought those days were over, but I was wrong. /v

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
1) I suspect 3/6 should not be substantially different from 2/4- a little tighter, but still (hopefully) a good # of fish. What should I expect at 3/6 and how should I adjust?

2) How about 5/10 full? Differences, necessary adjustments?

3) I dont want to try 10/20 until I am sure I can beat 5/10 (dont want to risk $6k in the event im not good enough to beat this game), but would like a precursor on what to expect since i plan to be there soon. Is this game substantially tougher than the relatively easy 2/4 game? Ive observed a little bit and was not overly impressed. Tons of cold callers, a fish or two at every table, etc. This was only a brief, cursory observation period, though- im sure in reality the game is much tougher. Could some of you 10/20 or 15/30 pros compare and contrast the most obvious differences between my 2/4 game and the standard, run of the mill party 10/20? Any thoughts and advice on adjustments, etc will be greatly appreciated. Im sure I shorthanded play becomes a lot more important, for one. Anyway, I dont want to move up to this level unless im fairly sure i can beat it. but i wont know for sure if i can beat it till i try! Catch 22. Perhaps I will eventually try it, and move down if I lose 3k. that's why blackjack so far has a more special place in my heart than poker. in bj, you KNOW whether or not you can beat a game. not so in poker w/o actually taking the shot. at least that's my impression so far.

anyway, all thoughts appreciated, especially those of winning players who have already successfully made the move up from the trenches to the golden million dollar goldmines of 30/60 and above (jk- wish that were true).



**some seem to believe that shorthanded 3/6 and 5/10 is generally a better game than their full equivalents. Would most of you guys agree w/ that? How about at 10/20? Personally, the majority of my study has been geared toward beating full games (i primarily base my play around THFAP and SSHE). I have played a lot of low limit 1/2 short, but am definitely more confident in my full abilities. Would appreciate comments on party short v/ party full at these equivalent levels.


[/ QUOTE ]

These are a bunch of questions about specific small stakes games. I'm not trying to be a high-stakes snob, but you'll get much better information from the people who've played them recently (small stakes forum).

[ QUOTE ]
**Finally, a lot of you guys talk about 8 tabling party. How do you guys do this? 2 monitors right? One with party and one with a skin? Is this how it works? Also, my monitor doesnt allow 4 tables at a time. Would most of you agree that it is far better to invest in a monitor that will support this? I dont really mind jumping from table to table, but i guess eventually ill make the switch. from what ive read, though, it seems two of these superpower monitors can be fairly expensive. anyway, i think my ultimate plan is to 8 table the highest limit I can substantially beat for 1.5-2 bb/100. It seems obvious if you can beat 15/30 for 2bb, but 30/60 for only one, it would defiinitely be better (financially speaking) to stay at the 15/30 for variance reasons.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can play multiple skins and I know that with Eurobet and a specific rakeback program (though I doubt this is the only example of this idea) you can just have 2 eurobet accounts. I 8table the 30 and I'm delighted to have spent almost 2k on a great double monitor setup. It has easily paid for itself. Furthermore, I'm gonna write it off as a business expense on my taxes. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
As for whether to play 15/30 for 2bb/100 or 30 for 1bb/100 I'd say the question depends on two things: your bankroll and your goals as a poker player.
If your bankroll would be on the small side (200-400BB) at 30/60 and need to be making steady withdrawals and you hate the game and are playing to pay for law school confident you'll quit in 2 years, stay at 15 for the lower variance.
However if your bankroll is large enough and the horizon of your poker career long enough to essentially ignore variance I would definetly play the 30 with the same (or even slightly lower) real dollar expectation. You'll learn more faster in the bigger tougher game and if you plan on playing poker for a while this learning has extremely large value.
The same ideas apply to making a decision like this between any 2 levels. Just be careful not to get overconfident and move up too fast while running good. This can be especially dangerous if you're prone to tilt when stuck as its much more stressful being stuck at twice the stakes you're used to in a game where you're not confident you're a winner.

[siegfriedandroy]

Ike- Thanks for the response. What would you say are the major differences between the 15 and 30? Also, what is your opinion on shorthanded v. full at these levels? Thanks.

Also, how did you know i was playing poker to pay for law school!?

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
As for whether to play 15/30 for 2bb/100 or 30 for 1bb/100 I'd say the question depends on two things: your bankroll and your goals as a poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would add that the 10/20 6-max is the best choice if you want a small bankroll/less variance/less stress, yet you can still earn similar amounts of money.

[2ndGoat]

I think people get a little caught up in characteristics of a given level at a given site. The games get tougher as you move up. It's just how it goes. Better players move up because they can, poor players can only lose so much money, and fewer people can afford to lose $10000 a year than can afford to lose $1000.

If you're a fantastic player, both 20/40 and 2/4 will seem like inviting fishing grounds. If you're mediocre the bigger game might look intimidating.

The differences as you move up come down to things like:
-fish may play more aggressively, even though they are still fish. However one that bluffs a little is significantly less profitable than one that NEVER bluffs
-you are more likely to see 5 half-decent players and 2 fish at your table rather than the other way around
-you will get checkraised more
-you will have to be more comfortable making reads in heads-up situations, where the correct decision doesn't smack you in the face quite as often as in a 5-way pot (in my opinion, anyway).
-You can usually count on one or two people at the table that play well enough that you just don't want to get in pots with them unless you have to

For the most part, planning ahead for higher limits can't have much of an effect on your end results- does it really make a difference whether someone tells you 15/30 is easy or tough? You'll find out quickly enough when you get there. If you're really interested, watch the tables for awhile.. sounds like you already have a little bit. That will probably be more useful to you than getting opinions from others' perceptions, where what we tell you may be tied more to the size of our egos than anything else.

2nd

[siegfriedandroy]

Is this correct? I have been told that 6max is generally more volatile, with greater variance, thereby requiring a larger roll (around 500 bb). Can you elaborate?

[stigmata]

The variance in short handed is greater than full games, but I imagine the variance at 10/20 6-max is probably similar to 30/60 full in terms of bb/100.

However, in absolute terms, the variance at 15/30 and 30/60 is much bigger. At 30/60 you will experience 10k downswings, wheareas at 10/20 a bad downsing is 4k.

In terms of earning potential, a rather average player (e.g. me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]) can make 2+ BB/100 at 10/20, whereas at 30/60, excellent players are reporting winrates as low as 1BB/100. Also factor in that decreased winrate = bigger fluctuations.

If you compare 1BB/100 at four full tables of 30/60 versus 2BB/100 at 10/20 (6-max), you can see that they are roughly equal. Obviously there are alot of ways of looking at this problem. However, there is a strong argument that 10/20 6-max games offer the best ROI of any online game.

[Vaftrudner]

If you compare 1BB/100 at four full tables of 30/60 versus 2BB/100 at 10/20 (6-max), you can see that they are roughly equal.

Yes, but at 3/6 you earn 15 bb/100 so it's actually the best of them all... (ie no way you earn more at 10/20 compared to 30/60 if you're a decent player...) /v

[stigmata]

the key word was ROI. I'm arguing you that an an OK player can earn a similar amount at 10/20 and 30/60, but with a far smaller bankroll and variance (and hence less stress etc).