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  #111  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:02 PM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously one of the premises has to be false. I'm saying premise 1 is false because fatalism is false.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, but your statement boils down to "fatalism is false". There is no reason why the premise that he doesn't lie can't be the false one. Or the premise that he tells you anything at all.
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  #112  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:06 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

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If you are not going to eat the ice cream, at least one of these three premises has to be false. It could just as well be the second or third as the first. All you have done is set up a scenario with premises that contradict each other. Doesn't prove anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought experiments never prove anything. They are just an excercise to clarify what is already intuitive. Its my position that premise 1 has the highest probability of being false(however fatalism says it must be true).

Think about the thought experiment this way. Suppose you know with absolute certainty that premise 2 and premise 3 are true. Which is more likely to be true

A)I can act differently than the demon predicts.

or

B)My freewill prevents the demon from actually being able to predict the future give the constraints of this senario.

Stu
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  #113  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:18 PM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Think about the thought experiment this way. Suppose you know with absolute certainty that premise 2 and premise 3 are true. Which is more likely to be true

A)I can act differently than the demon predicts.

or

B)My freewill prevents the demon from actually being able to predict the future give the constraints of this senario.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]
If we knew with absolute certainty that premise 2 and 3 were true, I would say what is most likely to be false is the first part of premise 1. Premise one is divided in two parts:

The demon knows everything about the present and the past.
Therefore it must know everything about the future.

But I suppose you also postulate that I know the first part of statement one with absolute certainty, and your question is "what is more likely to be false: the second part of premise one or premise four". You see how you are just as well off just stating that it is intuitively true for you that you have free will, than to call this far fetched scenario a refutation of determinism?
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  #114  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously one of the premises has to be false. I'm saying premise 1 is false because fatalism is false.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no idea you seriously thought this thought experiment disproved determinism/fatalism. Here, I have one for you:

1) I create a computer program that prompts you to choose either "0" or "1" to predict what # the computer will next print on the screen.
2) If you predict correctly (by entering the # into the computer), you win $1million.
3) The computer will print the inverse of whatever you enter ("1" if you enter "0", and "0" if you enter "1") [and you know this].
4) You are unable to enter the predition of the # the computer is next printing on the screen.

Conclusion: the computer has free will, because you can't enter the prediction of what # it will pick, even though you know the exact rule it is using to pick the #.
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  #115  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:47 PM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

Yes, yes. Good one.
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  #116  
Old 12-13-2005, 04:05 PM
ZZZ ZZZ is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
LaPlace's Demon says to you, "I know you are going to eat this bowl of ice cream".

If you could eat that bowl of ice cream but decide not to then determinism is false.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you built a robot that was programmed to do the opposite of what the demon said, is it your position that the robot would have free will? Is it your position that the robot's behavior is not governed by a set of deterministic laws?

If that is not your position, please explain why your argument in favor of free will applies to humans but not to robots.

I actually thought of your exact argument a few months ago and had briefly changed my mind into thinking that free will exists, but a friend set me straight. The demon cannot exist as specified. It is similar to why the halting problem cannot be solved.


Z
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  #117  
Old 12-13-2005, 04:40 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
So if you built a robot that was programmed to do the opposite of what the demon said, is it your position that the robot would have free will? Is it your position that the robot's behavior is not governed by a set of deterministic laws?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot prove man has free will although I suspect it exist. I believe there is a cause for every action. That being said I do not believe my actions are predetermined or a matter of fate. Human deliberation matters.

Stu
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  #118  
Old 12-13-2005, 05:03 PM
ZZZ ZZZ is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot prove man has free will although I suspect it exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. It certainly does feel like free will exists, although I suspect it doesn't. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But from where I stand, the illusion of free will is just as good as having it, so I'm not going to lose any (more) sleep over it.

Z
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  #119  
Old 12-13-2005, 05:22 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion: the computer has free will, because you can't enter the prediction of what # it will pick, even though you know the exact rule it is using to pick the #.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know I would not even bother to play such a game against the computer becuase it would be a complete waste of time. However against Bill Gates I might play a few rounds.

The difference between a man and robot is that a man can let the demon be right.

According to Wikipedia

Determinism in the West is often associated with Newtonian physics, which depicts the physical matter of the universe as operating according to a set of fixed, knowable laws. The "billiard ball" hypothesis, a product of Newtonian physics, argues that once the initial conditions of the universe have been established the rest of the history of the universe follows inevitably. If it were actually possible to have complete knowledge of physical matter and all of the laws governing that matter at any one time, then it would be theoretically possible to compute the time and place of every event that will ever occur (Laplace's demon). In this sense, the basic particles of the universe operate in the same fashion as the rolling balls on a billiard table, moving and striking each other in predictable ways to produce predictable results.

I believe all actions follow to a degree deterministic laws, but I wholeheartly reject this view of determinism. If this veiw was correct nothing could prevent the demon from making an accurate prediction(including the stringent constraints of the thought experiment).

Stu
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  #120  
Old 12-13-2005, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
If this veiw was correct nothing could prevent the demon from making an accurate prediction(including the stringent constraints of the thought experiment).

[/ QUOTE ]

What prevents you from accurately predicting the # the computer will print on the screen? Free will?

The fact is, the demon CAN predict what you will do -- it's just that by telling you in advance of your action, he is adding another cause into the equation. Just like entering a # into my computer program adds a cause in determining what # is printed on the screen.

I don't believe in fatalism, by the way. I think QM makes it impossible to accurately predict outcomes, but you can still accurately predict probabilities, as well as know exactly which variables would tip the scales even more in favor of whatever outcome you wanted.
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