JJ on the button 9 handed, CO open limp reraises...

[Phoenix1010]

.5/1 NL 9 handed. No reads on villain. Effective stacks ~$110.

Hero is Button with JJ.
Folds to CO who limps, Hero raises to $4.5, blinds fold, CO reraises to $10... so now you can flat call (probably not a bad idea) or reraise,
lets say you reraise to around $35, Villain repops it to $70... do you fold?

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]

lets say you reraise to around $35, Villain repops it to $70... do you fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible. Raising for 1/3 of your stack preflop and not even seeing a flop. If I'm reraising, it is with the intention of calling any further raise/push.

Edit: Why on earth to do want to do this? So you can "make a good fold" and get away from QQ-AA? Call the 10. You have a postflop edge against most hands (including QQ-KK and AK) because of your position .

[Phoenix1010]

Why are you acting as if I've promoted any line when I've only asked questions?

[the machine]

insta fold if you raise and he reraises you.

With these stacks and your position, its definatly a call. Re-raising here with no read wouldn't be too good.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you acting as if I've promoted any line when I've only asked questions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not assume you were promoting this line. I simply stated that I think that line (reraising and folding) is terrible. And then I asked what was your reasoning for it. You still have not given your thought process, so how are we supposed to help you more?

[PuertoKid]

[ QUOTE ]
You have a postflop edge against most hands (including QQ-KK and AK) because of your position .

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please explain why you think JJ has a postflop edge against these other hands because of position (maybe with a few examples)?

[Phoenix1010]

I must have mistook your tone then. My bad.

I believe calling the reraise is best here.

But I don't think reraising is all that terrible either. The fact is that I've never seen AA go for a LRR from that late on a full ring table, and I can't really grip what kind of player would try it. That doesn't mean he can't have AA (KK and QQ are far less likely I'd think, since almost everyone realizes the added need to protect those hands), but it does mean that there's a big possibility that he's dicking around with me trying to protect his limp from a button raise, I've seen a ton of that. I think I have the best hand here a large portion of the time, therefore I have no problem jamming preflop to extract value/protect my hand.

Having position is a big bonus here, in the same hand played from the SB I don't like flat calling. Still, I think the bottom line is that I really hate giving up the impetus preflop here with a hand that only plays marginally well postflop in what's becoming a fairly large pot, with no idea what my opponent has. I don't expect him to check a ton of flops, and that's going to leave me open to making a lot of mistakes. Raising a pot size bet on the flop without a set/OESD absolutely commits me to the pot far more than a PF RR and I let him see three cards for cheap. Just calling the flop is fine, but then that gives 4 cards, and still very little information.

I'm going to kick myself when the flop comes AK7 and I fold to his TT, or it comes Q high and I end up paying off his AQ all the way. Being in position helps, but it feels like giving away the lead preflop handcuffs you because you can't take the lead back on the flop without doing what you were trying to avoid doing preflop.

By the way, I don't think it's impossible to get away from this hand after reraising. It's about as terrible as getting away from KK with 2/3 of your chips intact after the fourth reraise. That last reraise in this hand is practically begging for a call.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have a postflop edge against most hands (including QQ-KK and AK) because of your position .

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please explain why you think JJ has a postflop edge against these other hands because of position (maybe with a few examples)?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a complicated subject, and it is very player dependent. But here are a few simple examples.

1.
Villain - KK
Hero - JJ

Flop AT7 - Villain leads flop, hero calls.
Turn - anything but a K - Villain checks, hero bets, villain folds. Does it even matter what hero has here? This is offcourse assuming villain is sensible and capable of folding.

2. More interesting example
Villain - AA
Hero - JJ

Flop - QT9
Villain bets, hero raises, villain has a tough decision. Calling and folding sucks, and pushing probably only gets called by better hands. Hero could have a set, KK, a straight or straight draw, and a flush draw if the board is 2-suited.
Now assume villain calls and checks the turn. Hero can take a free card unimproved or bet strong if he improves. Since villain called the flop, he was probably hoping to get a cheap showdown. If he checks, he risks giving a free card. If he tries to make a defensive turn bet, he risks hero coming over the top - another tough decision.

Now suppose hero calls the flop in the above hand. Villain leads the turn. Hero can raise/pushes unimproved, and the play still has decent FE against a tight villain. How often do we see advice on this forum to lead the turn for 1/2 pot and fold to further aggression in this type of situation. While this advice is good against passive and predictable opponents, it's a much different story against an aggressive thinking player.

The river is a place where huge amounts of EV is exchanged. Think about all the different situaitons for the river in a hand like the above. Out of position, we are thinking - should be check/call, should be block bet, can we fold to a raise, how much should be bet. Aren't these decisions a lot easier when we act second.

This was a bit of a ramble, and I apologize if some of it is incoherent..But ponder this for a moment. Suppose you have AK on the button in a heads-up pot against someone with AK in the CO. Suppose both players have equal skill level. Who do you think wins more money in the long-run? Surely it is the player with position. Now, if it is possible to make more money against a player with the same hand as you, then it is conceivable that one could break even or better in position against a superior hand.

[scrapperdog]

IMO a 10X the BB re-raise means your jacks are probably not good. The best you could hope for is AQ-AK and even then they probably will put the heat on any flop. I dont like the 3 bet idea in the slightest. Dont get married to a pair of Jacks and dont count on position to even out the hand when somone else has already taken control of it. And yes this is very player dependent, against certain players I just fold it up right then but most of the time I take a flop. If you raise up the button constantly the villans range is higher than if you are more conservative with it, this should be a factor in your decision.