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Old 12-24-2005, 12:53 PM
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Default At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

Bush was not as forthcoming in his wiretap admission the other day as he should have been.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Espio..._Intelligence/

So just out of curiousity, at what point will conservatives be upset with this whole thing? I will admit, I am a moderate that leans to the left, so my tipping point was long ago. To me, it is clear Bush is willing to trample on whatever civil liberties it takes to prevent another 9/11. Now some of you may be in favor of that. He and other conservatives seem to think that longevity is the single most important thing in life. If that were true, I could move to any number of countries with more freedom and a higher life expectancy, though I would likely pay higher taxes. America is great because of the Constitution. I, for one, would rather assume a slightly larger risk of a terrorist attack than have civil liberties trampelled on repeatedly. If people keep justifying anything Bush does in the name of preventing terrorism, where does it stop? If he declares martial law is that OK? That would likely reduce the likelihood of another attack. Help me understand why there is not the outrage on this issue I think there should be.
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:42 PM
JackWhite JackWhite is offline
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

Many already have on several different issues. On this one, George Will was extremely critical in his last column.
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  #3  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:47 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

Why not much outrage?

1) As Riddick pointed out in another thread, the Bush bashing complaints of this becoming a facist state are grossly exaggerated. While we do have more governmental intrusion as a result of 9/11, the appropriate benchmark of our rights is now compared to pre-9/11, not now compared to anarchy. And I as pointed out in another thread, we in the US have much less governmental intrusion and secrecy than Britain has had for decades under the Official Secrets Act, and they aren't goosestepping yet.

2) In judging how much governmental intrusion and surveillance is justified, what is important is not the increased probability that any one of us indivudually might be harmed, but that the US might suffer even 1 more such large attack. A risk of an attack that might still be fairly small without the Patriot Act, still entails a very large consequence if it does occur, and thus demands more be done to prevent it.

3) Also as I said in another thread, these are temporary measures and there is absolutely no justification other than fear-mongering and Bush-bashing, to argue "slippery slope". We have very effective legislative, judicial and constitutional remedies if the government should be perceived by a majority to have gone too far.

4) All civilian citizens are also soldiers for our country in the war on terror. We have to give up some things, both in order to prevent further attacks on our homeland, and in order that our troops and intelligence agents in the field might have the best available intelligence. And they need our moral support and unity as well. The long term view being able to tell the forest from the trees is what is needed. We shouldn't just be fair weather soldiers. If we refuse to make the required sacrifices at home, we are equivalent to someone who endangers the lives of his neighbors by refusing to maintain a blackout during an air raid, selfishly insisting that it is too much an intrusion on his rights not to be able to keep his lights on, when only a relatively painless and temporary sacrifice is asked.

5) There is also a political element to this as well of course. Since the democrats and libs have such an anti-Bush agenda that they are willing to distort and exaggerate, i.e. to make mountains out of molehills, they are just preceived by the public as the boy who cried wolf one too many times. Which is a shame since a legitimate complaint could fall on deaf public ears as a result.
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Old 12-24-2005, 02:07 PM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

[ QUOTE ]
Bush was not as forthcoming in his wiretap admission the other day as he should have been.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Espio..._Intelligence/

So just out of curiousity, at what point will conservatives be upset with this whole thing? I will admit, I am a moderate that leans to the left, so my tipping point was long ago. To me, it is clear Bush is willing to trample on whatever civil liberties it takes to prevent another 9/11. Now some of you may be in favor of that. He and other conservatives seem to think that longevity is the single most important thing in life. If that were true, I could move to any number of countries with more freedom and a higher life expectancy, though I would likely pay higher taxes. America is great because of the Constitution. I, for one, would rather assume a slightly larger risk of a terrorist attack than have civil liberties trampelled on repeatedly. If people keep justifying anything Bush does in the name of preventing terrorism, where does it stop? If he declares martial law is that OK? That would likely reduce the likelihood of another attack. Help me understand why there is not the outrage on this issue I think there should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

This administration has done nothing that any other administration since the passage of FISA in what...1978? In fact the controls put in by the administration surpass those of any other administration.

The Senate intelligence committee was briefed in great detail no less than 4 times and no one, including the Honorble (cough) Nancy Pelosi raised any objection.

This is just another off target attack by Dems desperate in their fear that if Iraq continues to go well they are SOL in 2006.
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  #5  
Old 12-24-2005, 02:33 PM
cardcounter0 cardcounter0 is offline
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

[ QUOTE ]
At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, much further. Maybe never.
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2005, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

[ QUOTE ]
I, for one, would rather assume a slightly larger risk of a terrorist attack than have civil liberties trampelled on repeatedly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which civil liberties did you enjoy prior to the Bush administration that you now find yourself incapable to exercise?

If you can answer this question with any degree of honesty, then perhaps this conservative (me) will admit Bush has gone too far.
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:07 PM
canis582 canis582 is offline
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I, for one, would rather assume a slightly larger risk of a terrorist attack than have civil liberties trampelled on repeatedly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which civil liberties did you enjoy prior to the Bush administration that you now find yourself incapable to exercise?

If you can answer this question with any degree of honesty, then perhaps this conservative (me) will admit Bush has gone too far.

[/ QUOTE ]

History has shown us time and time again that once we get to that point, it will be too late. It really scares me that people think the way you do.

Oops, we are already there:

"The billed, named the Ohio Patriot Act is so restrictive on civil rights that it authorizes police to arrest anyone that refuses to give up their personal information when questioned without a warrant, or a plausible reason to be questioned. In addition, anyone using public transportation would be required to show photo identification. Anyone who refuses will also be arrested."

SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS, SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS

Somehow I doubt anything will change your mind.
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  #8  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:13 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!
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  #9  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

[ QUOTE ]
History has shown us time and time again that once we get to that point, it will be too late.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please then, treat us to a crash history course on democratically, constitutionally guided nations with penchants for gun ownership that have been stripped of their civil liberties and unable to return amidst their subsequent demise, and corroborate your statement of what history has proven. Elaborate on what you mean by "that point", since possibly you are in disagreement with the OP that we have "gone too far", less you feel it is "too late".

[ QUOTE ]
It really scares me that people think the way you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you honestly think I am oblivious to my own civil liberties, and my own awareness as to where the government shall and shall not tread? Are you aware that I hail from the militia capital of the world, where a commonly referred-to motto is "When All Else Fails, Vote from the Rooftops"?

Tell me, in what way do I think? (since it scares you so much)
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  #10  
Old 12-24-2005, 05:13 PM
sirio11 sirio11 is offline
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Default Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?

There is a point where parallel lines intersect.

I think that is the point.
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