Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Other Topics > Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:37 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,103
Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

[ QUOTE ]
In matters of personal privacy and liberty they should be treated exactly like US citizens. That includes clandestine eavesdropping without due process -- an activity best left to the stalinists and communists.

They are guests and should be treated as guests.

[/ QUOTE ]

There would be nothing wrong with eavesdropping on foreign terror suspects on US soil if we first advise all visiting foreign nationals that they may be eavesdropped upon. Simply announce it as a policy; then, if they wish to be guests or not, under those conditions, they are free to do whatsoever they might wish. The "due process", in this case, would be simply forewarning then that they might be monitored should they choose to visit, as might any visiting foreign nationals.

Nothing underhanded or unconstitutional about that.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:44 PM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Foxwoods, Atlantic City, NY, Boston
Posts: 1,089
Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

I am not talking consitiutional per so. It may or may not be.

I am talking about Americanism. Americans do not indulge in clandestine eavesdropping, unlimited detentions without full due process of the law. It is completely un-American behaviour.

We have a good law enforcement system, we can also make it better. Concentrate on that not on KGB tactics.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 12-21-2005, 11:32 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,103
Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

[ QUOTE ]


I am talking about Americanism. Americans do not indulge in clandestine eavesdropping, unlimited detentions without full due process of the law. It is completely un-American behaviour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see nothing wrongly clandestine or un-American about making it a KNOWN policy that foreign nationals suspected of terrorist-related activities on US soil may be investigated or may have their communications monitored.

Also, I didn't suggest *unlimited* detentions for suspected foreign nationals on US soil.

[ QUOTE ]
We have a good law enforcement system, we can also make it better. Concentrate on that not on KGB tactics.

[/ QUOTE ]

The war against terrorism is more than merely a matter for law enforcement. Terrorists--and jihadists--are more than mere criminals. They are at WAR against our country, and against other Western democracies. All foreign nationals should expect a little extra attention when they CHOOSE to visit the United States--and in fact every foreign national who visits the USA should be so advised.

The terror threat to the USA comes almost entirely from foreign nationals. It would be illogical, and even foolhardy, to treat them exactly the same as US citizens when it comes to possibly suspect activity.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12-22-2005, 01:33 AM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Foxwoods, Atlantic City, NY, Boston
Posts: 1,089
Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

I said without due process. I am happy to have phone taps, searches, seizures as long as law enforcement has gone to a judge and received an OK. This is due process. This is how Americans operate when it comes to invading the space of men (and women). This is how it should be.

I am happy to have someone held indefinitely as long as the get a hearing and a lawyer and are treated just like we treat any other criminal.

Having one person or group (and specially the executive) decide what is OK to do and what is not OK to do when invading the rights of men -- that is what communists and fascists do. It is not OK, it is not American, it is entirely reprehensible.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I didn't suggest *unlimited* detentions for suspected foreign nationals on US soil.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is not acceptable for any agency of the US to hold some one indefinitely without due process whether they are on US soil or not. It is unacceptable for any agency to transfer a prisoner to a secret jail in another country to get around the basic human rights as defined in the statement: all men are created equal.

[ QUOTE ]
The terror threat to the USA comes almost entirely from foreign nationals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right now the far bigger threat to us is within not without. The terrorists may be tearing at the flesh of America, these activities are tearing at the heart and soul of America.

As someone said in another thread, and as I have said in the past, the war on terror is fearmongering. It is not a war, there is no defined enemy no defined endstate. Using the War on Terror to erode the principles of America -- that is the bigger threat by far.

If you have even the slightest streak of Libertarianism in you, it should be obvious.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 12-22-2005, 03:13 AM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,103
Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

[ QUOTE ]
It is not a war, there is no defined enemy no defined endstate. Using the War on Terror to erode the principles of America -- that is the bigger threat by far.

[/ QUOTE ]

It IS a war; it's just a new kind of war.

I do agree with you, though, that our principles should not be "eroded." That is why I think the government should simply make it policy and publicly announce that all foreign nationals visiting may be investigated if deemed suspicious--and that that investigation may include surveillance. Putting this aboveboard and making it plain that that is policy would be the right thing to do. And again, if visitors have second thoughts, well, nobody is forcing them to visit.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 12-22-2005, 11:40 AM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 27
Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

[ QUOTE ]
It IS a war; it's just a new kind of war.

I do agree with you, though, that our principles should not be "eroded." That is why I think the government should simply make it policy and publicly announce that all foreign nationals visiting may be investigated if deemed suspicious--and that that investigation may include surveillance. Putting this aboveboard and making it plain that that is policy would be the right thing to do. And again, if visitors have second thoughts, well, nobody is forcing them to visit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something in my gut tells me that those with business interests in foreign tourism (which constitutes many different sectors of the economy, all of which, by some measure, have a powerful lobby advocating on their behalf) may not be in favor of such a public pronouncement.

There's probably a whole host of reasons why that message isn't one that's particularly feasible for the United States to broadcast, even if true.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 12-22-2005, 12:18 PM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,103
Default Re: *** You are ignoring this user ***

A useful feature.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 12-23-2005, 04:28 AM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Foxwoods, Atlantic City, NY, Boston
Posts: 1,089
Default Re: Well Lookee Here! BLUFFThis! is wrong

The concept of advertising that we are monitoring foreign travellers is slightly worse (in the economic-social-political sense) then the horrible (in the ethical, true global libertarian sense) idea of doing the secret monitoring.

My opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:57 PM
xpokerx xpokerx is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6
Default Re: The disgraceful right-wing distortion on the domestic spying issue

You realize of course that Clinton DID these things right?
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 12-28-2005, 03:03 PM
elwoodblues elwoodblues is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Rosemount, MN
Posts: 462
Default Re: The disgraceful right-wing distortion on the domestic spying issue

[ QUOTE ]
You realize of course that Clinton DID these things right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill Clinton was a major proponent of and signed the USA PATRIOT act?

Bill Clinton ordered the detainment of a US Citizen, characterized him as an "enemy combatant," and intended to hold him for an unspecified period of time without access to any judicial oversight to determine if he was, in fact, an "enemy combatant"?

I guarantee if the roles were reversed and Clinton acted the same way Bush did following 9/11 --- doing the exact same things --- you would have hoardes of Conservatives (who now follow Bush because they trust him) up in arms about bad Big Government and vice versa.

Clinton might have done some similar things, but they were not widely known about because the country wasn't focussing on those things. 9/11 changed that.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.