KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser

Raise flop (it will only give you 2 sb if the other two call and a scare card can come so easy...). Cap it if possible.

Raise turn (If you raise preflop and he 3-bet you, he wont go anywhere, and make him pay any drawing hand he have)

Cap river. How come you only called???

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet preflop. start raising on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good advice. AF of 2.2 is aggressive for that VPIP, and so is the PFR. He's a LAG so give him the chance to raise and give you money.

[SCfuji]

hey ksot

how loose of a raiser is the villain? if hes a normal lag you need to be 3 betting to isolate here on the button. since you didnt you need to raise that flop and go jam-happy. since you didnt do that either you need to raise the turn. since you hate money you can now go light your wallet on fire.

[KSOT]

[ QUOTE ]
hey ksot

how loose of a raiser is the villain? if hes a normal lag you need to be 3 betting to isolate here on the button. since you didnt you need to raise that flop and go jam-happy. since you didnt do that either you need to raise the turn. since you hate money you can now go light your wallet on fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted BB and UTG to stay in there. I was pretty sure they're were just calling because villain had been raising constantly and their turn folds seem to confirm that. Even if they had gutshot draws, is that so terrible? I don't mind someone putting in a big bet for a gut shot draw in a pot that I'm very likely to win.

Fact of the matter is I built a MUCH bigger pot playing it the way I did, than if I'd jammed the flop and turn. It was a small gamble, but is it really such a bad thing?

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted BB and UTG to stay in there. I was pretty sure they're were just calling because villain had been raising constantly and their turn folds seem to confirm that. Even if they had gutshot draws, is that so terrible? I don't mind someone putting in a big bet for a gut shot draw in a pot that I'm very likely to win.

Fact of the matter is I built a MUCH bigger pot playing it the way I did, than if I'd jammed the flop and turn. It was a small gamble, but is it really such a bad thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Giving gutshots proper odds to call the flop isn't a good idea. You want them to make mistakes not play properly. Also you'd be amazed how many 1/2 players will peel this flop with some ugly hands or call down a 9 even if you do raise. Also if you get in the habit of not slowplaying and therefore raising alot of flops you'd be amazed how much they love to call you down.

The other thing is: How do you KNOW that not raising the flop and turn netted you a much bigger pot? One of those guys could easily have Kx and will give you plenty of action while forcing those gutshotters to pay too much to make their calls profitable.

[KSOT]

[ QUOTE ]
Giving gutshots proper odds to call the flop isn't a good idea. You want them to make mistakes not play properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think that by NOT raising on the flop, I got them to make mistakes they wouldn't have if I'd raised. Either way, they weren't getting proper odds for gutshot draws.

[ QUOTE ]
The other thing is: How do you KNOW that not raising the flop and turn netted you a much bigger pot? One of those guys could easily have Kx and will give you plenty of action while forcing those gutshotters to pay too much to make their calls profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well raising the turn was clearly optimal in hindsight, since neither of the extras called there. But as I said, I don't think I'd have kept them around until the turn by raising the flop. That's two extra bets I got on that round instead of one or possibly even none from the LAG (not to mention his turn bet which I enticed by not raising). I really felt that nobody else had Kx, but if they did, they'd probably raise it sooner than I did anyway. They'd be in a much better position to do so, not acting directly after the PF raiser. Really, the only negative thing I can think of regarding the way I played this hand is that the LAG caught a miracle card on the river (6s full of kings). But I think the chances of that are slim enough to make it a risk worth taking.

Correct me if you disagree.

[KSOT]

I keep trying to work out in my head why it is so important to isolate the raiser when all it does in my eyes is cut down the size of the pot and force me into a situation where I'll probably be betting or calling with a worse hand. There really aren't very many hands in his range that KQo beats, LAG or not.

To those who advocate raising pre-flop, tell me this. When the flop comes all blanks and he bets, am I supposed to fold right there after having 3bet pre-flop and appear weak-tight? Am I supposed to call down with king high? I hate both of those options. Why should I put myself in that position when I could just coldcall and see if I catch?

[Thebram]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep trying to work out in my head why it is so important to isolate the raiser when all it does in my eyes is cut down the size of the pot and force me into a situation where I'll probably be betting or calling with a worse hand. There really aren't very many hands in his range that KQo beats, LAG or not.


[/ QUOTE ]

How can someone raise 18% of the time, and not have A LOT of hands in his range that are dogs to KQo?

[ QUOTE ]

To those who advocate raising pre-flop, tell me this. When the flop comes all blanks and he bets, am I supposed to fold right there after having 3bet pre-flop and appear weak-tight? Am I supposed to call down with king high? I hate both of those options. Why should I put myself in that position when I could just coldcall and see if I catch?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well those are situations you'd have to evaluate as they come. But the points are:
1) You are in position, against a player who is likely raising with a hand worse than your own
and
2) You increase your pot equity by knocking the blinds out of the hand and getting this heads up

[ QUOTE ]
I keep trying to work out in my head why it is so important to isolate the raiser when all it does in my eyes is cut down the size of the pot and force me into a situation where I'll probably be betting or calling with a worse hand. There really aren't very many hands in his range that KQo beats, LAG or not.

To those who advocate raising pre-flop, tell me this. When the flop comes all blanks and he bets, am I supposed to fold right there after having 3bet pre-flop and appear weak-tight? Am I supposed to call down with king high? I hate both of those options. Why should I put myself in that position when I could just coldcall and see if I catch?

[/ QUOTE ]

somewhere on this forum possibly in the general hold'em forum is a very long response by Ed Miller about preflop raising.

You got UTG limping, a LAG raising from MP, no calls after the raise, and the blinds to act after you. You have position and you should raise to isolate AND to take control of the hand. UTG has shown no strength, and MP could have a very wide range of hands. If you miss on the flop, so what? You're last to act. Based on the play ahead of you, you can decide what to do. You don't know that he will bet out if the flop comes all blanks and you raised pre-flop. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. If he does, you can decide to peel one off, raise, or fold. I hate cold calling. I almost NEVER do it, PT says less than 0.5% of the time. Either raise or fold. Both SSHE and ITPM talk about how it is usually a BAD idea to cold call.

[SCfuji]

theres enough variance in limit holdem, so if you want to increase it go ahead.

preflop this is a position/value 3 bet. be stubborn post flop if you miss and the lag starts betting, but with the 3 bet pf i dont know how often you get donked so you may get a cheap showdown if you bet right.