Whats my action

[JeffO]

Live 40/80 game at Casino Arizona. I'm on the button with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. It's folded to the MP who is a little on the LAG side. He limps. I raise my K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Both blinds call as does the MP limper. Both blinds seem like they are fairly solid players.

4 to the flop of T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Both Blinds check and the MP leads out. What is my action?

A point could be made for any of my 3 choices.

Raise to clean up my K and J outs and make it HU vs LAG?

Call, I'm probably behind but I have 6 outs?

Fold, I've got two overs with no backdoor flush draw and the chance of being check raised?

[mike l.]

fold but it's something like a spade on the flop, or a gutshot draw, that turns it into a call or a raise.

spade on the flop=call.
gutshot+spade=raise.
nothing but overcards and blinds to act behind you=fold.

oh also if you had ace high that'd be more reason to raise instead of call if you had any piece of it at all. also if the pot were 3 way instead of 4 way that would lean towards continuing with the hand.

but as it stands it's a fold and it's pretty clear.

i love threads like this because this is something i face a lot being a chronic raiser.

[DcifrThs]

when its early in a hand i go w/ the DS line of folding if i dont see a reason.

i dont see a reason to continue on w/ this hand. its close but its still a fold.

on the end i usually default to calling w/o a reason to fold.
Barron

[NYplayer]

i fold here. this is your chance to get away from it without having invested too much, just 2 sbs.

[ QUOTE ]
fold but it's something like a spade on the flop, or a gutshot draw, that turns it into a call or a raise.

spade on the flop=call.
gutshot+spade=raise.
nothing but overcards and blinds to act behind you=fold.

oh also if you had ace high that'd be more reason to raise instead of call if you had any piece of it at all. also if the pot were 3 way instead of 4 way that would lean towards continuing with the hand.

but as it stands it's a fold and it's pretty clear.

i love threads like this because this is something i face a lot being a chronic raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mike I think youre advice for this situation is very sound. I have a question, why would having ace high make you more apt to raise everything else being equal?
-Wes

[catlover]

When you flop overcards and there is a bet in front of you, you look at some second-tier questions to decide whether or not to continue:

1) Do you have ace high?
2) Do you have a backdoor flush draw?
3) Do you have backdoor straight draws?
4) Might your pair cards make someone else a straight?
5) Is there a reasonable chance the flop helped your opponents?
6) Did the bet fold out anyone before you had to act?

Here the answers to questions 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 are all unfavorable. Only number 3 is favorable -- and that's not enough reason to continue. It's not really even close. Fold.

[jayheaps]

You have to fold here, though raising is preferably to calling.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
fold but it's something like a spade on the flop, or a gutshot draw, that turns it into a call or a raise.

spade on the flop=call.
gutshot+spade=raise.
nothing but overcards and blinds to act behind you=fold.

oh also if you had ace high that'd be more reason to raise instead of call if you had any piece of it at all. also if the pot were 3 way instead of 4 way that would lean towards continuing with the hand.

but as it stands it's a fold and it's pretty clear.

i love threads like this because this is something i face a lot being a chronic raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

mike, I think this is very well written and agree with you - it doesnt happen much (me agreeign with you) so i wanted to point it out!

I particularly like your point about having an Ace making it a raise.

[JeffO]

I folded the flop and agree with those that made that choice.

Actually I was more interested in what people thought was the next best option if they continued with the hand.

Raise or call?

[JimmyV]

Whoa tiger, whoa. I chose 'raise' because it makes all the subsequent decisions easier. You should get to the river for free unless you're well behind.

Raise better than fold imo. Though not by much. Plenty of high cards out there to fall and opponent will fold to a bet if turn is an Ace or even Queen. Read-dependent.

JimmyV