Against a thinking TAG.....

Redd · #1 12-28-2005, 02:43 PM

The only hand a thinking TAG should be c/ring the flop with here is a monster IMO.

He should be check-folding lone 7s/pockets (that were too weak to 3-bet pf) on the flop because hero's range is basically a bunch of aces, a few kings, bigger pockets and maybe QJs that has 10-11 outs against him in a small pot.

He should be WA/WBing aces or kings here.

So if he's really decent the only reasonable hands I can see him c/ring for value here are 77, A7s, or a deception-pf-called AK. After his check-raise, I call down on the chance that my read is wrong, possible outs against two-pair, or a trickey bluff.

Shillx · #2 12-28-2005, 04:19 PM

I have thought about this for literally 30 minutes and I haven't come up with a good reason for him not to play Ax slow. The only problem comes in when it gets to the 3rd level or somewhere far beyond the scope of my thinking abilities. So when the villian says "he will never have an ace here", you pop the check/raise with A3 and he looks foolish when he value calls down with Q9 (knowing that you have 65s or something). I know I've done this and the guy had the damn ace everytime. But until you reach this point, it makes no sense to play an ace fast.

Having said that, most people will play Ax in the manner that the villian played this hand (even better opponents). If you are going to do anything before the river, I would start putting bets in on the flop. If you decide to just smoothcall, I would intend on raising the river. If he has Ax, you get 3 bets no matter if you raise 4th or 5th. If he has a draw, you win 2 bets no matter what street you raise. But if he has nothing, you win that extra bet by waiting. If you are looking to get paid by Ax or Kx, just go ahead and 3-bet the flop.

Redd · #3 12-28-2005, 04:29 PM

Bradx,

[ QUOTE ]
I have thought about this for literally 30 minutes and I haven't come up with a good reason for him not to play Ax slow.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Having said that, most people will play Ax in the manner that the villian played this hand (even better opponents).

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't these two statements contradictory? If we assume he's playing very well, why wouldn't he choose the best play?

I really don't like analyzing cognizant tag vs. cognizant tag hands because of this sort of 'hall of mirrors' effect where each guy knows what the other guy knows he knows they know. It seems to me that if we're doing anything less than several levels of thought here the thinking tag wouldn't want to raise an ace here.

Eeegah · #4 12-28-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like analyzing cognizant tag vs. cognizant tag hands because of this sort of 'hall of mirrors' effect where each guy knows what the other guy knows he knows they know. It seems to me that if we're doing anything less than several levels of thought here

[/ QUOTE ]

I suddenly have the urge to build up a resistance to Iocane powder.

#5 12-28-2005, 04:52 PM

Just to really complicate the discussion, this was the real hand. I'm really on the button.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
7 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (8.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB