Three Card Wheel Theory

What do you think of the three card wheel theory of O/8, devoloped by Miami John? I was curious about the theory becuase I'm tweaking my game.

[kitaristi0]

?

Do you have a link or sth where I could read about this?

[BettyBoopAA]

I think this is from Phil Helmuth's book

Basically, you raise with any 3 wheel cards or call two bets with good three card low hands. Obviously, you don't play J-3-4-5 for two bets. And before you jump on me and bash it, remeber that Miami John created this strategy and he considered the best O8 player evah.

[gergery]

Well if the best O8 player ‘evah’ can successfully play a loose game against top pros that will get him into marginal, judgment-intensive spots frequently then I see no reason why a newbie tweaking their game shouldn’t be able to do exactly the same thing against low-limit fish. Go for it, and let us know whether you lose a lot of money or just a little.

-g

Thanx Gergery! I am a thinker and whenever I think about poker strategy, I assume my opponents play at a high level.

[FBMike]

There are three wheel card hands that simply must be played, even if you have to call capped bets cold before the flop. Such a hand would be A23x, A24x, or A25x. The value of x doesn’t really matter. Sure you would prefer it to be a face card or 6, but even something as bad as a 9, which at first glance is a “dangler” (a card that doesn’t fit with the rest of the hand) can “accidentally” win you money. Let’s take A239 and a flop of A95 rainbow. All of a sudden you like that dangler a heck of a lot better than a 6 or face card. These wheel cards are some of the strongest O/8 holdings, especially when there are other features besides 3 excellent low cards. I don't know at what point I would stop raising pre-flop, probably never, if I had one of these hands double-suited on A and K. In NL/PL I would only be stopped from jamming pre-flop by running out of chips.

The other 3-wheel-card hands are more problematic. 234x, 235x, or 245x want to flop an A. With lots of people already in the pot before you act, how many aces do you realistically think are left? The main value of these hands is that they are rarely counterfeited enough to get beat for low when you do flop an ace. I won't call 2 bets cold with these hands, though, because you can hardly drive the betting without an ace flopping. This group also doesn't scoop as much as the previous group and next group, because they can never be drawing at the nut flush without x being a K, say, and an ace of the same suit flopping.

I feel more confident entering a pot with lots of limpers with A34x or A35x, since I already have an ace. I can practically play any way I want pre-flop, because these are very good hands on their low and straight values alone. The only real danger with these hands is when no deuce comes and you have the 2nd best low. However, that's not the only draw you'll have lots of times when 2 or 3 low cards flop. The presence of 34 or 35 means you'll catch straight draws or made straights that a hand like A2xx likely can't catch, in case you are against an A2 for low. I will always call 2 bets cold with these hands, but I would have to really be getting pot odds to call 3 bets. I definitely will make it 3 bets if I am double suited or x is nice. [Note: in all these examples I assume you don't have people who raise with JT76 and get re-raised by QQ87. On those tables I would always jam with the first group, call with the second, and probably just call with this group, but I would certainly re-raise with the ace suited or if x is a good card.]

A45x is kind of in its own category. Solely considering it's low value, it's a tricky hand to play when a 2 isn't part of a flopped low or 1-card draw. I consider it a little better than 234x, because of the ace, but those two hands are very, very close in my mind. If x is good and/or the hand has other fearures, like suited on the ace, I can call or raise pre-flop much easier than with 234x. That's why I don't group these two hands together in their own group and consider A45x its own group.

345x can't stand any heat, even on nutty tables. This hand wants to see a cheap flop and hope for an ace. An ace counterfeits so many of your opponents' likely low holdings, that you can even play 345x almost as aggressively as 245x when an ace comes. A flopped 2 instead can probably counterfeit some opponents, but it probably doesn't help you like a flopped ace does. However, you'll probably have some kind of straight draw or flopped straight when a 2 comes and you've made a low or one-card draw to low; so, this lets the iffy low come along for the ride sometimes. If the 2 really did hurt the other lows you could scoop a nice pot or pick up the low half anyway. Because of the uncertainty of where you stand most of the time for low, though, you will almost certainly miss some bets or be betting with the 2nd best low hand (it's even worse to do that than missing bets.)

If the above is along the lines of what Cernuta believes, then I'm 100% in agreement with him.

[Buzz]

Toastman - I like Greg's response. Let me just add a bit to it.

In most casinos, you get four cards in Omaha-8. All four cards play together. Whether they are (1) double suited (best), (2) single suited to an ace, highest to lowest (next best), (3) some other variety of single suited, or (4) rainbows makes a big difference in their playability. I don't see how consideration of all four cards and the suitedness of the hand can be avoided.

If you just look at non-suited hands (rainbows), there is (obviously) a big difference between A23X hands (all playable) and 345X hands (all sub-marginal).

You can play some sub-marginal hands and may even show overall profit by playing them. And even when you lose a small amount on a particular sub-marginal hand, but by playing it increase your edge when you get a good hand, there is some merit in playing them if you use good judgement. It's really hard to say exactly because it depends very much, in my humble opinion, on the particular opponents who are seated at your table.

I want to play more hands against certain opponents than others. And I want to raise under some circumstances and not under others. Whether or not I raise (before the flop - or, indeed, almost any time before the river unless I have the ice cold nuts) depends almost entirely on the opponents I'm facing rather than the cards I hold.

And even with the ice cold nuts, I might not raise at any juncture if I think I can profit more by restraining myself.

Playing a hand or raising with a hand is simply a very opponent specific and position specific type of thing for me.

Play and raise with any three wheel cards? It's certainly a simplistic theory, which has appeal because of it's simplicity. But I strongly suspect that top notch Omaha-8 players don't really play this way, regardless of what they may claim. I strongly suspect that top notch Omaha-8 players strongly base their play on the opponents they are facing, rather than on an overly simplistic "three wheel card theory."

In my humble opinion, always playing and raising with any three wheel cards is not good advice for strong players and it's certainly not good advice for beginners or intermediates.

I don't like to knock book writers, but I really didn't think much of the Omaha-8 sections in Phil Helmuth's book.

Buzz

[theben]

i;d question anything learned from phil hellmuth

are you saying play 3 4 5 9? no way, throw it back

[imported_Robert Andersson]

has Miami John published anything online?

Are there any other Quality articles online to be found?

Thanks in advance!

/Robert