Help me drop out of school (resume, job search question)

[mantasm]

[ QUOTE ]
Being a lawyer mostly sucks.

I've done tax, criminal prosecution, criminal defense, family law, big firm litigation, small firm litigation, and a year-and-a-half of "door law" (whatever walks in the door).

I find that the only lawyers I have ever known who like what they do are Intellectual Property attorneys (they get to be involved in science regularly, and there's always new, cutting edge tech and, accordingly, legal theories and decisions), Criminal (both sides - but you have to be a true believer in your side, not just in it for a job), and public interest lawyers (ugh).

Consider, if UT allows, a leave-of-absence instead of dropping out. May be tough to get back in anywhere if you drop out.

As an engineer, you have the background for IP. Go to the guidance office and ask to be put in contact with some alums who are both doing IP and have an EE (or similar) background.

I wish almost every day that I hadnt gone to law school. I went for the wrong reasons (not sure what I really wanted to do, and its a supposedly versatile degree). I loved criminal prosecution, but other than that, its mostly sucked.

Good luck.

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I'm going for the same reasons you went. I didn't have a job, felt like my life wasn't going anywhere, and felt like I had to do something about it. I'd already taken the LSAT so it seemed like a good idea.

I had planned on going into IP since I have the background for it. I've heard the opposite you have about patent work though, people I've spoken to find it dull from what I've seen I have to agree.

If I do leave I will try to take leave of absence, probably even if I have to finish whatever semester I'm in at the time. I want to leave but don't like burning bridges.

Thanks for the reply and I hope we both find something that makes us happy.

[Eratosthenes]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you prefer to ask about an employment gap during an interview, or find out that I was sitting around playing poker for a year from my resume?

What type of company do you think would be least likely to have a problem with my weird resume? This is probably hard to answer.

Thanks for the tip about the gulf coast companies, I'll look into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the decision to put or not put a year of poker on your resume depends on how you want to answer those questions. If you leave a missing year on your resume, you will have to answer about that year with several interviewers (in the same company). If you just go ahead and put the year of poker on your resume, then you'll have questions about what it was like, what limits, how much can you make, etc. (of course you'll have those questions anyway).

If it was me, I would put poker on the resume. I would add a list of accomplishments for that year, just like I would if I had been a manager of stuff for big widgets inc. that year. Those accomplishments might be starting at .25/.50 and moving up to 15/30 in 6 months or depositing $100 and turning it into $100,000. Professional poker uses skills that a working engineer needs, such as discipline, attention to detail, continuous improvement of skills, logical thinking, etc. I would prepare a coherent story about my year of poker emphasizing the intersections of poker and engineering. I would also put a "reason for leaving" in that section of the resume.

The companies that are least likely to have a problem with your poker experience are the more enteprenurial, more risk taking, less conventional companies. These companies are not easy to find. Every company says they value these traits, but many only give them lip service. You'll have to sort them out (and they, you) in the interview process.

[amoeba]

what is your name?

as I also graduated EE from UT austin around that time.

[Eratosthenes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah the examples I provided weren't the best. My concern was trying to put it in terms that people who don't play could understand. If a resume told someone i made x.xBB/100 would anyone understand it? Or moved from $100/200 - $4000/8000 (nto really)? Putting in hard data that demonstrates I was a success is a good idea, but I want them to understand it. Maybe something like progressed from an average hourly earn of $x - $y?


[/ QUOTE ]

How about something like this (detailes faked and probably not consistent):

SELF EMPLOYED, PROFESSIONAL INTERNET POKER PLAYER, 2004-2005
- Achieved an average earning rate of $7000/month over the last three months.
- Progressed from $1/$2 limit hold'em games to $10/20 limit over the year and a half I played.
- Achieved a win rate of 1.3BB/100 (big bets per 100 hands) over the last three months. At the limits I played at, 1.0BB/100 is considered an exceptional win rate (90th percentile)
- Improved my game by taking full advantage of the analysis tools available to poker professionals -- Poker Trakcer, Poker Stove, PokerAce HUD.

The goals being (which you should be aware of for each bullet on your resume):
- Show your results a professional and how much you made. Try to show that this was not some waste of idle time but your means of putting bread on the table. If you were a salesman, your first bullet would probably talk about your sales volume.
- Show that you applied your self and improved over time. Similar to bragging about promotions in another job.
- Show how you compare to the competition. BB/100 is like the SAT score of poker. It does require some explaination, but it show you are serious, are aware of your competition, and where you stand against your competition.
- Show that you used available tools to analyze and improve your game. You are an engineer, part of the job description is to utilize tools to solve problems.

Obviously, if you were an SNG player, the bullets would change accordinliy (ROI vs. BB/100). If you were a big tourny player, you would talk about final tables and big cashes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good example of a poker section of a resume that I mentioned in another reply. I think this approach has the potential of turning this into an advantage.

In another part of this thread you mention that you are not sure you want to be an engineer for the rest of your life. Some engineers stay in engineering for their whole career (my brother, for example. he's 50, works as an engineer, makes $150k/yr or so. of course, he is very good at what he does)--others go into management/executive positions (me, for example). Getting a few years experience as a working engineer will only help your future prospects, no matter what you do for a living 20 or 30 years from now.

You mention an MBA. An EE + MBA doesn't really help your job prospects unless the MBA is from Harvard or Wharton or one of the other biggies. If you take an EE job and do well you can probably get your employer to pay for the MBA in a few years (that's how I got my Ph. D.).

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
if you're not at a top 15 program, it makes sense to drop out. u're not going to make much more, if any, than in engineering.

[/ QUOTE ]


you need to be from a top 15 law program to be making big money? no way.

maybe if you want to become a great corporate lawyer.

I worked at a small law firm where one partner was from a big top ten school and everyone else was from nowhere. they were all still making great money. the key is that they were partners and owned the firm.

a lot of small firms are very very profitable. if you want to be a successful lawyer you need to be a great lawyer and a great businessman. the name of the school on the wall isn't going to decide that. though it might make things easier on you.

[mantasm]

[ QUOTE ]
what is your name?

as I also graduated EE from UT austin around that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man, I PMed you.

If I were reviewing a resume, and saw someone was a poker pro, that resume would go in the trash in a heartbeat.

The fact that you dropped out of law school makes it even worse. Frankly, unless you lie, you are going to look like what you probably are--a poorly motivated, undecided dilettante who can't stick with anything.

I suggest you lie and hope for the best. In case it matters, I am a lawyer. It's not the world's most satisfying job, but it's not like I work in a coal mine. I get paid extremely well and it's not nearly as difficult as people think. But it's probably not for you, as you sound sort of lazy (please don't tell me how hard you worked in engineering--it's not that bad).

Anyways, I'm not trying to be insulting at all ... just truthful. Good luck to you.

As a recruiter who is immersed with resumes on a daily basis, I agree with Solitare. Let's pretend you did not put your poker playing on your resume. An employer will look at your resume and think, "so what the hell HAS this guy been doing for the last 18 months?" Assuming they don't throw your resume away immediately (which most will), that is going to be the first question they ask you when they conduct a phone interview, and they will be asking that question with a very skeptical tone. At that point you better have a good answer if you want a shot at the next step...you're already behind from the beginning since your resume leaves an extremely important question unanswered.

Some employers will see your poker playing as a red flag and reject you for that reason alone - so be it - it is what it is and you have to deal with that. However, do NOT deceive the employers who are OK with it by omitting it from your resume. What you are communicating to the employer is you're ashamed of your experience and feel that it's not important or relevant. But you did it for a year and a half...with success. Omitting stuff from your resume like that IS a red flag with all employers; tell the truth; be accountable for your actions...especially your successful ones.

Getting a job is all about selling yourself. What you need to do is spin your poker playing experience in a positive way; you need to connect it to the job and use it as a reason they SHOULD hire you. Let's face it, there's something commendable about essentially running your own business AND making a significant profit. You are doing a lot of stuff to make it as a pro; you have to research new sites, bonus programs, manage finances/balance sheets, etc. Not to mention that it takes guts. And some solid quant analysis skills. Having those skills sure makes you more attractive than the average college grad with an internship in an engineering firm as the office assistant, don't you think?

-dustyn

[mattw]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were reviewing a resume, and saw someone was a poker pro, that resume would go in the trash in a heartbeat.

The fact that you dropped out of law school makes it even worse. Frankly, unless you lie, you are going to look like what you probably are--a poorly motivated, undecided dilettante who can't stick with anything.

I suggest you lie and hope for the best. In case it matters, I am a lawyer. It's not the world's most satisfying job, but it's not like I work in a coal mine. I get paid extremely well and it's not nearly as difficult as people think. But it's probably not for you, as you sound sort of lazy (please don't tell me how hard you worked in engineering--it's not that bad).

Anyways, I'm not trying to be insulting at all ... just truthful. Good luck to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

just as quickly you determine he is lazy, i can see you are a fish. wanna play some cards?

[mantasm]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were reviewing a resume, and saw someone was a poker pro, that resume would go in the trash in a heartbeat.

The fact that you dropped out of law school makes it even worse. Frankly, unless you lie, you are going to look like what you probably are--a poorly motivated, undecided dilettante who can't stick with anything.

I suggest you lie and hope for the best. In case it matters, I am a lawyer. It's not the world's most satisfying job, but it's not like I work in a coal mine. I get paid extremely well and it's not nearly as difficult as people think. But it's probably not for you, as you sound sort of lazy (please don't tell me how hard you worked in engineering--it's not that bad).

Anyways, I'm not trying to be insulting at all ... just truthful. Good luck to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds a lot like you were trying to be insulting, Gerry. And it didn't help.

You sound defensive about the lawyer thing. I wasn't taking a shot at lawyers if that's what you thought. It's just not what I want to do.

I'm not lazy, I just didn't find a job right out of school and it made me very uncomfortable to not have something definite going on in the future. Law school seemed like a good choice, but I didn't have a good idea of what the profession involved.

Please don't respond to this.