flopped two pair from BB with Q7d

[peterchi]

Live $3/$6 at the Taj

UTG+1 is tight, solid, not too creative
SB sees almost every flop
My table image is probably somewhat loose-aggressive thus far.


Preflop: Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 6 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, SB folds, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

I'd like to hear your thoughts before I give mine. All streets appreciated.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
Live $3/$6 at the Taj

UTG+1 is tight, solid, not too creative
SB sees almost every flop
My table image is probably somewhat loose-aggressive thus far.


Preflop: Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 6 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, SB folds, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

I'd like to hear your thoughts before I give mine. All streets appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+1 is tight, solid, not too creative - Fold PF - If you had a bunch of cold callers that'd be one thing, but your hand is Q-high. Poop.
Flop Fine
I bet the Turn - if I'm still picking up that much head, i drop down a gear

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[W. Deranged]

1. This is not a great hand to play. The raiser came in in a legit position, not on a steal. SB is already in. Let it go here.

2. Flop is good.

3. There's no reason to let up on the turn just because the A dropped. Bet the turn. If you get raised you are probably drawing to very few outs against a "tight, solid" player and I'd seriously consider folding to the turn raise rather than calling down. At that point you are probably up against AQ or a set.

[peterchi]

let me start off by saying that you've been one of my favorite SS posters recently, i pretty much always find myself agreeing/learning from what you say. so i thank you for that.

[ QUOTE ]
1. This is not a great hand to play. The raiser came in in a legit position, not on a steal. SB is already in. Let it go here.

[/ QUOTE ]

at the time, i knew this call was rather thin, but i was thinking that 5:1 immediate pot odds to flop something nasty was good enough to call here, plus SB was gonna keep padding the pot almost no matter what he had. but i'll think about it some more.

[ QUOTE ]

3. There's no reason to let up on the turn just because the A dropped. Bet the turn. If you get raised you are probably drawing to very few outs against a "tight, solid" player and I'd seriously consider folding to the turn raise rather than calling down. At that point you are probably up against AQ or a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

after his flop 3-bet, i put him on AA, KK, AQ, KQ, and a smaller possibility of QQ, 99, 77.

i figured i didn't mind letting him bet KK or KQ for me and that having it check-through wouldn't be the end of the world (although now that i think about it, he's got way more outs with those than i was thinking).

i was also thinking that i definitely wanted to show this down, and do it as cheaply as possible. but you're right, a turn bet-fold is much better. i like that a lot and i hope i can have the discipline to do that.

[W. Deranged]

P--

Thanks for the vote of confidence. One thing to note is that you should be careful about how you look at pot odds pre-flop. It's pretty hard to actually flop something "nasty" like two pair or a flush, and you usually will need longer than 5-1 to do that. In fact, 5-1 is actually very small for pre-flop odds for speculative hands... usually you need to be up in the 8-10 to 1 range to start considering pure speculation hands.

Remember that even if your hand might win enough to merit calling with 5-1 odds, your hand will be hard to play post-flop and not all of the hands that you would "win" if the board cards were dealt out straight you will actually see (because you'll fold the flop, etc...)

[callmedonnie]

If I cap the flop, I don't like checking the turn. I figure he has KQ, AQ, KK, AA. The turn is a really bad card, but I think you have to lead and given the size of the pot call a raise. On the river I'm thinking Aces is the only hand that beats me, so I'd probably lead there too. If he raises, I'm paying off rockets.

[callmedonnie]

I also agree that folding to a raise on the turn may be the right decision. But its tough given that a good TAG would probably raise KQ, KK there.

[deucesevenoff]

Posting blind...

The one part I'm having trouble with is whether or not to call PF. Do most people call in this spot with Q7s getting 5:1 while we're out of position? If this has been addressed elsewhere in the thread then disregard that question (like I said I'm posting blind).

Other than that, I think you left some money on the table, particularly on the turn and river. You capped the flop but then check/called the turn and river? Makes no sense to me.

I'd bet the turn and call a raise (okay, he may have a set). But once we fill up on the river I'm going to try to get all the money in I can.

If we don't fill up then maybe I'll be a bit more careful on the river but not with the third nut.

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]
I also agree that folding to a raise on the turn may be the right decision. But its tough given that a good TAG would probably raise KQ, KK there.


[/ QUOTE ]
are you sure about this?



[ QUOTE ]
...I think you have to lead and given the size of the pot call a raise. On the river I'm thinking Aces is the only hand that beats me, so I'd probably lead there too. If he raises, I'm paying off rockets.

[/ QUOTE ]

see but these are exactly the reasons i DIDN'T want to lead the turn. if i get raised, i'm almost definitely beat unless he's overplaying his KK or KQ. but you're saying that i have to call. so this line has me putting in extra bets that i really don't want to.

also keep in mind that AQ still beats me too. the only hands i've rivered are 99 and 77, and these are much less likely given that he raised pre-flop UTG+1.

i think the turn bet-fold is optimal, but if i have to go to a showdown, then, given his likely range of hands here i'd much rather check-call like a fish than put in all these extra bets.

[shant]

I think it was a Peter_rus post that recommended calling lots of suited when it is three way from the BB. I like to do it.