4/8 - B&M...what's your typical/average win

[Prelude008]

Just curious how much people typically win in a 4/8 live game because I often reach a hill that I can't overcome.

I play live in LA where the players generally are really bad. They play super loose for the most part, seem to like "almost any two", and are stubborn about folding.

I find that I can usually win 140-180 (with solid play). Now here's my dilema. I usually stay...thinking I can win more since the games are usually still good. I often times will loose my winnings and sometimes some of my $$.

I'm just wondering how much others are winning at 4/8? What's a typical good session?

I find that it is hard to beat a whole table of chasers. Someone always finds something. It starts with good cards getting cracked repeatedly. I try to stay diciplines but sometimes this leads to another part of the problem...probably a form of tilt where I (not all the times though) begin to losen up my hand requirements (not tremendously but enough) and stay in hands longer than I should (this might be a good time to leave)

I know poker is suppose to be one long game. Just how others are doing in 4/8 live and how to overcome my "wall" situation (keep playing, table change around the "wall amount", leave at first signs of tilt)

Thanks.

[midas]

Prelude:

You are brave to submit a post like this - all previous posts like this got flamed and berated alluding to poor play (poster), perfect table conditions (loose) for a big score and told to go back and read SSH again (once was too much for me)

I play a lot of live 4-8 in these conditions and have experienced the exact same results. Live 4-8 is streaky especially when you have 2+ players chasing straights, flushes or holding a junk Ace or King hoping to pair up on the turn or river. You're going to take some bad beats but you have to take it in stride and pray these fools don't leave the table before you can get your money back. Another suggestion, which is difficult for me since I play more for fun than money, is to walk away when you are up $150 - $200. Also, I never play live 4-8 for less than 5 hours in order to get a decent range of starting hands and dragged pots.

[Preytar]

I feel that you should play in a game for as long as possible if you have a clear advantage. Suckouts and short-term bankroll roller coasters are inevitable in most low limit games, but you should be able to overcome them over time by utilizing the information provided in SSH.

(NOTE: I am advocating you do this within the constraints of your bankroll and risk tolerance).

Good luck.

Brian

[Prelude008]

Thanks all for your responses and for not berating [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I am finishing up SSH for the second time and am playing close attention to the "protecting your hand" chapters. I think this is one are I still need to improve in. Looking back over my post and the responses, I found one answer is to either leave, take a break or change tables when I find the "suck-outs" starting to effect my play.

I know the loose games are ideal playing conditions. I still feel that sometimes it is very hard to overcome so many chasers. This leads me to think more about table selection - maybe change to one with a better mix of players (fewer chasers ).

Would you consider winning 150+ in a few hours a good session. Maybe I should stop being greedy [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] and leave and do other things.

[ShawnHoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you consider winning 150+ in a few hours a good session.

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Well, yeah -- it's certainly more than you would expect to average over thousands of hours in that game if you're a winning player.

But that question misses the point that folks here are trying to get across. It shouldn't matter how much you're up or down during a particular session. Instead, you should look at how you stack up skill-wise against the players at the table, as well as how you're feeling physically and mentally.

Leaving after an hour because you're up $150 and think you're due to give it back doesn't make much sense.

[Durs522]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you consider winning 150+ in a few hours a good session. Maybe I should stop being greedy [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] and leave and do other things.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this comment I feel like you are still missing the underlying concept here. Whether you leave +150 or continue playing doesn't really matter. I used to have the same problem. You need to stop looking at poker as an individual session and start seeing it as one continuous game broken up into many sessions. Whether you leave when you are ahead or not will not affect your total bb/hr. It is more of a psychological thing to leave when you are up, however if the game is good there is no reason for you to leave. If you find yourself getting tired, not paying attention, playing too many hands, or playing against opponents that are not optimal i.e. you aren't seeing +4 players to the flop, then by all means you should leave. However if none of these are true I feel it is incorrect to leave just because you are ahead.

I would venture a guess that you're playing on a limited bankroll. You seem to not be able to handle the swings. If you're afraid to lose the money you have won you are not thinking about the game correctly. The only reason to leave a game is because it isn't optimal, not based on your +/-BB. Realize that there are times when your overall +/-BB can cause the game to become bad because of the way it affects you. If you're playing with a large enough bankroll it will become easier to understand that eventually it will even out and you will make your 1-2bb/hr.

I hope this helps some. This concept really helped me to understand the game more. It allowed me to free my mind from the misconceptions I had about when to stay/leave a game.

Durs

[dabluebery]

Don't switch to tables with fewer chasers, unless you have bankroll concerns or if playing in such a loose game bothers you to the point where you are basically on tilt and playing differently because of it.

More chasers = better results in the long term. With those better results comes higher variance. Period. There are going to be days where you play great and everything goes well, and you'll walk out of there up 6 bets an hour. This has happened to me. There will also be days where you lose 2 bets an hour, because everything goes wrong, and the difference, over the long haul, is your win rate.

Playing a higher limit or a table with better players will minimize your variance, at the expense of cutting into your winrate.

Rob

[AKQJ10]

I'm not going to berate anyone (yeah, I know, I need to conform to the 2+2 code of conduct...) but I am going to proffer an opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
Now here's my dilema. I usually stay...thinking I can win more since the games are usually still good. I often times will loose my winnings and sometimes some of my $$.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is either a subtle but dangerous form of tilt, or it's selective memory playing tricks with a random walk. My guess is it's a little of both. (A third possibility is that opponents are getting a read on you. At some $4/8 tables that might be the case, but at others that's unlikely given their general level of observation.)

I'll admit, I do things like play a $2/4 game, if I go substantially up then switch to $4/8, and when I feel like I'm "cresting" and falling back down switch to something else (say 1-3 stud) to "break my fall". I do it because my risk tolerance is not yet very high, not because the game suddenly turned -EV. The cards don't know that I'm running well. Maybe some opponents notice, but frankly it looks like luck -- which it is, in the short term.

[HeroInBlack]

I'm not any kind of great player, but I average about $10 an hour at 4/8 B&M. I don't know if that's good or bad.

It'll be a happy day when I can profitably play a higher limit where the rake and tips don't kill me.

[Luv2DriveTT]

I will start the berating. I couldn't even finish reading the OP because is misapplication of the fundamentals. Lets get to the heart of it, you are no officially being berated because you need to learn the following ASAP:

1) Don't be results oriented. Focus on playing perfect poker, and results will come naturally
2) Don't think of winnings in dollar amounts, think of them in big bets. The average B&M win is 1 BB/hour over a long period of hundreds of thousands of hands. The best players may slightly exceed 2 BB. It doesn't matter if you win 7 BB /hour today, in the long run it all evens out. Welcome to the concept of variance.
3) If you can't beat the chasers, then you can't play the game. We welcome chasers here... yes at times it can be frustrating, but they are the providers.
4) Read SSHE, the micro limits forum, then wash rinse and repeat.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]