weird re-raise hand (play along) - Page 3

Allinlife · #21 06-26-2005, 02:42 AM

yuk oop raise with A9o
flop bet standard
check-fold after flopbet gets called unless you hit a/9

FreakDaddy · #22 06-26-2005, 02:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
yuk oop raise with A9o
flop bet standard
check-fold after flopbet gets called unless you hit a/9

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember, this is 6 max AND villian is laggy raising with wide range of hands. I think pre-flop raise is fine, BUT I don't think there's much fold equity here against a LAG.

wtfsvi · #23 06-26-2005, 08:42 AM

I think reraise preflop is fine. A bit on the small side though. I'd probably make it a dollar more.

I don't really get the lines people are advocating. He will certainly bet if we check to him, so we should bet to avoid being blown off the hand? If we bet, we've commited us to the pot, so I can't see how this has any benefit when we are behind (except to maybe make him fold TT), and if he will always bet when checked to, it has to be obvious that checking is superior when we're ahead.

In not-mixing-it-up-mode I'm checking that turn against a LAG everytime, weather I have KK or 72o (only time i'd consider betting would be with a draw). Question is to decide what do do when action gets back to me. That's read dependent, but I think I'm calling most of the time (well, I'm pushing in the few dollars I'd have left after the call that is).

Will he make a real raise preflop if he has AK/AA-JJ or are all his preflop raises the minimum?

TheWorstPlayer · #24 06-26-2005, 04:58 PM

This is a very good post, I think, thanks. I thought at the time that he would have made a real raise with a real hand and that he was mostly min-raising garbage. When he called my re-raise, of course it had to occur to me that he might have a real hand, but he also could call that re-raise with any two really. Also, if he had a monster, I thought he was the type to push preflop instead of flat call. But I was pretty uncertain. In any case, I checked the turn for the reasons that you said. Now what?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($64.05)
CO ($128.98)
Button ($18.62)
SB ($91.55)
Hero ($59.1)
UTG ($37.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP raises to $1, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4.5, MP calls $4, CO folds, Button calls $4.

Flop: ($16.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $14, MP calls $14, Button folds.

Turn: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero...?

soah · #25 06-26-2005, 07:33 PM

The new and more aggro me bets most (or all?) of my chips on the river because it gives my opponent a chance to make a mistake as long as he doesn't have a monster. I don't know if he'll fold better hands, I don't know if he'll call with worse hands, but I'm pretty damn sure he's not putting me on A9 so I know he has to make a mistake with some certain range of hands, even if I don't know what it is. If I check and he bets, then I really have no fuxoring clue what to do, because he's probably going to take a stab at the pot with any sort of busted hand after I check twice, but I'd also expect him to bet with many hands better than mine.

soah · #26 06-26-2005, 07:40 PM

btw, I'm not a fan of the turn check, unless you're giving up on the pot. Betting out here is your best chance to move your opponent off of QQ-TT, assuming he gives you some respect. As with the river bet that I proposed, it's something of a two-way bet... maybe he'll fold a better hand, maybe he'll call with a worse hand. Depends how big the L is in LAG. Also letting him take a free card when he's trailing sorta sucks.

TheWorstPlayer · #27 06-27-2005, 12:02 AM

Thanks for the comments, guys. And definitely feel free to add more. This hand caused me more problems than any hand in a while. I think that was the combination of a tenuous holding, a shortish stack in relation to the pot, and a LAG opponent, out of position, making for difficult times.

Here are my thoughts:
Preflop, usually I muck this because there is just too much of a chance to be dominated so I won't even call the min-raise. However, this guy was min-raising crap all night and a few others had called so there was some cash in the pot, so I thought I could most likely take it down preflop. Also, remember that the converter removes your blind when you raise out of the blinds for some reason, so I actually raised to $5, not $4.5. You can tell, because everyone has to call $4 more after calling the initial $1.

When he calls, I start to get nervous slightly, but I think that he will play strong with a truly premium hand here so I'm not worried about AA/KK/QQ. I think something like QJs or KQs is possible or many worse hands as well. Could be a small pair, too.

Flop, I have TPTK against a LAG and a short stack. If the short stack beats me, fine, nothing I can do about it. But I want to force the LAG to drop a hand with 6 outs against me, and he also could have the flush draw (probably with at least one over) which would have tons of outs against me. So I bet full pot.

Turn, once he called on the flop, I started to become very afraid of TT/JJ or flush draw + overs which could very likely have been hit by the K. I basically gave up on the hand. I decided to check/fold the turn. I think this is a mistake, however. I think I should probably push. His flat call looks like it may be a draw, a push may get him to fold TT/JJ, and perhaps most importantly it removes the possibility of my folding the best hand to a LAG.

River, once he checked on the turn, I put him on the flush draw which hit on the river. So my basic plan was to c/f the river since I assumed he would push it all in. However, when I checked it to him, he only bet $10 into a $40+ pot. I felt obliged to call at that price since he could be betting a missed straight draw, a lower one pair hand, or just complete air so I figured I would be good more than 20% of the time.

So, in total, I think I butchered the hand. Against such a bad player, who also has LAG tendencies (although I came to realise that was more preflop than postflop - but didn't know that at the time of the hand) I think I should have pushed the turn as a two-way bet as soah suggests and also to protect against a draw.

Here is the whole hand:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($64.05)
CO ($128.98)
Button ($18.62)
SB ($91.55)
Hero ($59.1)
UTG ($37.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP raises to $1, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4.5, MP calls $4, CO folds, Button calls $4.

Flop: ($16.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $14, MP calls $14, Button folds.

Turn: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Final Pot: $64.25

Results in white below: 
Hero has 9s Ad (two pair, kings and nines).
MP has 5d 7d (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $64.25. 

He ended up with the hand I was furthest from putting him on: a double-gutbuster. All additional comments on this weird hand most certainly welcome!

kurto · #28 06-27-2005, 02:12 AM

note:

Honestly, I would have considered a reraise on the river.

Here's my thoughts: (and you can contradict me if this player is different)... I find these kind of players (these lags who minraise with crap) bet very strongly when they have a real hand. I rarely see these type make small value bets. They minraise preflop and go nuts when they hit. If he had a flush, he wouldn't bet 1/4 pot. (granted in this case, he would have likely folded anyways)

On another note, I still stand by my earlier line to bet the turn. You reraised him preflop. He's much more likely to give you credit for a king and would likely fold a midpair. I still say against a lag, you can't show weakness. I'm actually surprised he didn't the turn.

I wouldn't give this advice against all player... but against a LAG who minraises with these kinds of cards, I think you're going to be right more often then not and I think it would be positive EV.

But I still say don't make the play you did preflop on the button. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TheWorstPlayer · #29 06-27-2005, 07:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But I still say don't make the play you did preflop on the button. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, makes you wonder who's the LAG! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks for the comments. I should've bet the turn.

fuzzbox · #30 06-27-2005, 10:27 AM

I like to shut em out with a bigger raise pf - perhaps 6 or so (I would also do this with big pairs and AK type hands in this spot fairly often).

If anybody calls, then I assume they have FD and bet hard on a non club. Club comes and I shutdown. Called/raised on the turn without improvement ... .then gotta make a guess!!