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  #1  
Old 12-02-2005, 04:44 AM
mj2 mj2 is offline
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Default open limp from middle postion

what hands, if any, do you open limp from middle position? in mp2 or beyond i either open raise or fold. mp1 i will open limp with KTs, QTs, JTs, A9s, A8s, A7s.
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  #2  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:09 AM
TheHip41 TheHip41 is offline
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

[ QUOTE ]
what hands, if any, do you open limp from middle position? in mp2 or beyond i either open raise or fold. mp1 i will open limp with KTs, QTs, JTs, A9s, A8s, A7s.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not just raise?

I can't remember the last time I open limped from MP
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  #3  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:21 AM
mj2 mj2 is offline
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

well, i think with these hands that one spot difference between mp1 and mp2 can be significant. i don't think you want to get 3 bet and be heads up out of position with these specific hands. and this seems to happen frequently in the aggressive higher limit games.
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Old 12-02-2005, 05:49 AM
TheHip41 TheHip41 is offline
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

[ QUOTE ]
well, i think with these hands that one spot difference between mp1 and mp2 can be significant. i don't think you want to get 3 bet and be heads up out of position with these specific hands. and this seems to happen frequently in the aggressive higher limit games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then fold.
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  #5  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:59 AM
mj2 mj2 is offline
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

i'm not saying that raising with these hands from mp1 is wrong. i'm just curious to what others think. i don't see how you can fold these hands. i know most people would raise from any middle position. recently i started limping only these hands and only from mp1 after i was constantly reraised and then heads up with a not so good hand and out of positon. i think limping has 2 benefits. first you won't get 3 bet and second if there is a raise, you might get others to call the 2 bets. i feel its much better to play these hands for 2 bets against 3-4 players rather than play for 3 bets against one player. again, i would only do this from mp1. mp2 i would always raise. i know that might sound picky but i think sometimes even one seat makes a big diffence.
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Old 12-02-2005, 06:47 AM
TheHip41 TheHip41 is offline
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not saying that raising with these hands from mp1 is wrong. i'm just curious to what others think. i don't see how you can fold these hands. i know most people would raise from any middle position. recently i started limping only these hands and only from mp1 after i was constantly reraised and then heads up with a not so good hand and out of positon. i think limping has 2 benefits. first you won't get 3 bet and second if there is a raise, you might get others to call the 2 bets. i feel its much better to play these hands for 2 bets against 3-4 players rather than play for 3 bets against one player. again, i would only do this from mp1. mp2 i would always raise. i know that might sound picky but i think sometimes even one seat makes a big diffence.

[/ QUOTE ]

open limping suited trash and trash suited aces is a good way to get isolated by a good player. even if you have a better hand, you are going to check fold the flop a lot.

Here's what to remember. when no one has limped:

A7s from MP1 is trash, JTs from MP1 is trash, QTo is trash, KTo is trash.

Just fold and move on to the next hand.
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  #7  
Old 12-02-2005, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

Very interesting to see a discussion regarding the difference between MP1 and MP2. I have tried to solve this problem by considering MP1 to be EP and I refer to it as the "fence" as in "sitting on the fence" meaning it can be EP or MP depending upon game texture and the action thus far. The way I actually do it is to look backward from the button. Button and cutoff are LP. Next two are MP. Then comes the fence and three EPs.

Wes' comment on folding all of those hands is interesting and probably relevant for a tougher game than what I usually play. I am still by far the tightest preflop player in my game, however.

I am currently open-limping A9s and the lower Broadway suiteds from the fence. I open-raise AQo and 99 here too.

A3s is a clear fold for me here. I might play the small suited aces in LP but only with many limpers in front. In LP I might steal-raise with it but conditions would have to be right.

Small pairs (below 99) I usually limp to flop a set with many limpers in front or steal-raise (or isolate one limper) when late.
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Old 12-02-2005, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

When playing online, I fold all of the hands you mentioned in MP1. If someone else already limped in, then I would call with all of those hands except A7s, I would call with A7s if there were 2 limpers. If I was opening in MP2, I would raise with all the hands you mentioned except A7s,QTs, I would still fold those but I would open with both in MP3. Just letting you know my default strategy for these hands in these spots, not saying my way is correct. Due to the aggressiveness of online play, I use a very tight strategy IMO with these hands in the situation you described and I am certain there are many players playing looser than this and making more money than me in these spots.
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  #9  
Old 12-02-2005, 08:56 PM
roy_miami roy_miami is offline
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

I have a pretty small sample, only 75000 hands and 25000 of that is short handed but I have had some success with these hands from early position. Most of these hands are from 15/30 and 30/60 and I pretty much limp with them all. Using OP's starting hand minus A7s. So with A9s, A8s, KTs, QTs, and TJs I have made

UTG - <font color="red"> $178 </font>
UTG+1- $1577
UTG+2- $1543
UTG+3- <font color="red"> $82 </font>

For an overall profit of $2860 or $12.27 per hand. I think you are giving up too much by folding these hands especially if you have a limper. I don't see why you should be so worried about being isolated by an aggressive player and having to fold the flop when you miss. Chances are he's not isolating you with less than K high so he has you beat. I remember playing in a game once where everybody was playing tight and aggressive preflop, mostly just blind steals. I got QTs or TJs UTG and limped. Five or six players limped in behind me. There was some pretty heavy action that hand and a big pot was created. After that hand the table loosened up considerably and there was a lot more limping, it could have been partly due to tilt or maybe it was just coincidence and everybody now has lots of limping hands but I like to think I coaxed these bad players into it by showing them its OK to limp.

Anyway, I see in your post that you know you may be giving up some profit by not playing these hands so do want you want I just thought I would share some results. I would be interested in seeing some other players results that have much larger databases than I do.

regards
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  #10  
Old 12-03-2005, 05:07 AM
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Default Re: open limp from middle postion

[ QUOTE ]
I have a pretty small sample, only 75000 hands and 25000 of that is short handed but I have had some success with these hands from early position. Most of these hands are from 15/30 and 30/60 and I pretty much limp with them all. Using OP's starting hand minus A7s. So with A9s, A8s, KTs, QTs, and TJs I have made

UTG - <font color="red"> $178 </font>
UTG+1- $1577
UTG+2- $1543
UTG+3- <font color="red"> $82 </font>

For an overall profit of $2860 or $12.27 per hand. I think you are giving up too much by folding these hands especially if you have a limper. I don't see why you should be so worried about being isolated by an aggressive player and having to fold the flop when you miss. Chances are he's not isolating you with less than K high so he has you beat. I remember playing in a game once where everybody was playing tight and aggressive preflop, mostly just blind steals. I got QTs or TJs UTG and limped. Five or six players limped in behind me. There was some pretty heavy action that hand and a big pot was created. After that hand the table loosened up considerably and there was a lot more limping, it could have been partly due to tilt or maybe it was just coincidence and everybody now has lots of limping hands but I like to think I coaxed these bad players into it by showing them its OK to limp.

Anyway, I see in your post that you know you may be giving up some profit by not playing these hands so do want you want I just thought I would share some results. I would be interested in seeing some other players results that have much larger databases than I do.

regards

[/ QUOTE ]
Roy, thanx for your imput. I suspect I may indeed be giving up some profits here. I will say that once one person limps in I will also limp in with all the hands the OP mentioned with the exception of A7s. I prefer 2 limpers with this hand(dont ask me why cuz I dont have a logical reason, this is just my default multi-table online strategy) But I will say that I do not like the Idea of open raising any of these hands from MP1, with no reads on the table, but I will open raise with most of them from MP2. I think the major theme of this thread is that there is a huge difference between MP1 and MP2, and I strongly agree with this view point.
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