A post for Tommy Angelo.

[Mikey]

I'm playing in a very loose agressive game with the same old faces. The game is 10-handed. 10-20 HE.

I'm in seat 9. UTG is seat 8. 3-bettor is in seat 10.
Cutoff is in seat 4.

UTG limps, he'll limp in with any 2.

I look down and see my 2nd favorite hand in Hold'em and Raise it up.

The next guy to my left 3-bets me instantly, that only means 1 thing and that's an overpair, which overpair, I don't know yet.

It gets folded around to Mr. Any two will do in the cutoff And he calls, the blinds fold, UTG calls. I cap it. Everyone calls.

The flop is 9 4 4 rainbow.

UTG checks.
Now I decide to do something different here. Normally I would bet my Kings here 100% of the time, but I'm pretty sure that the guy on my left has an overpair, so I check thinking that maybe I can get in some type of checkraise here. He disappoints me and checks as well, as does the 3-bet cold caller.

On the turn falls a 6, no help to the flush draws.

UTG checks. I bet. and everyone calls.

The river is a 7.

UTG takes a look at the board and says "I'll bet."

I pause look at board think to myself, don't let emotion get involved in this one, and put these cowboys to bed they can't be good anymore. You know.... they aren't good. The air around you says your hand isn't good. As I'm staring at the board I can feel the disappointment in the other two players as well. I couldn't do it Tommy, the pot was too big, I knew I was I beat, but I had to do it, I had to put in the extra $20. Guy on my left calls, and now the 3-bet cold caller raises it up.

As I'm looking at the cutoff there is a certain air that surrounds him and I know he doesn't have anything its a stale air, he misread his hand, he thinks that by raising here he can represent something strong, but I know he doesn't have anything but hopes and dreams. UTG shrugs now and murmurs something and he calls. I make the fatal mistake and call again, as does the man to my left.

Tommy what did I do here.

What do you do here from preventing yourself from making these types of mistakes especially the intial one?

Why do I sometimes go against my judgement when it has proven to be correct so many times and rarely ever wrong?

[Tommy Angelo]

"What do you do here from preventing yourself from making these types of mistakes especially the intial one?"

Hi Mikey,

The way I prevent from making the initial mistake of checking the flop is to not even think of it as an option. If I raise TWICE before the flop with KK, and no ace flops, and it's my option on the flop to check or bet, it is impossible for me to check.

As to the rest of the hand, I have no idea what you should have done or when or why. You were in mysterious unchartered waters. The biggest reason I would always bet in that spot on the flop is because the information stream must remain intact to be later useful. Once I make any bet that is exactly the same as what someone would do if they did not have KK, all is lost. It's like guessing all over from scratch, as to what they have, compared to simply betting out on the flop, because now I have to think about what they now now think I have, having checked, when before, all I had to do was assume that they thought I probably had a big pair, and proceed reasonably and predictably to attain maximum profit and/or savings.

The situations yet to unfold, on the flop and turn, are always too diverse in number to anticipate any of them individually, so I anticipate all of them collectively, from a position of maximum information and leverage. Bet the flop.


Tommy

[Mikey]

"The biggest reason I would always bet in that spot on the flop is because the information stream must remain intact to be later useful."

Right on. I was lost throughout the whole hand because I checked on the flop.

[SpaceAce]

Tommy used a lot of words to get to the central point which is: you should have bet the flop. I have limited experience at the $10-$20 level but I think your reasoning was faulty on the flop. You believe the person to your immediate left has a big pair so you decide to go for the check-raise. Now, it would nice to trap the other two players for a bet each but why risk whiffing the check-raise and giving a free card to two limpers/cold-callers when you can bet and possibly get to make it three bets heads-up with the other big pair after he raises and knocks everyone else out? I think check-raising is a great play but something about the dynamics of this particular situation makes it seem like a shaky idea to me.

One very important thing that I think swings the flop decision away from check-raising and toward betting is that you put in the last raise pre-flop. Given the circumstances, I prefer to bet out and hope to get raised.

Edit: By the way, I agree with the informational aspect of betting here but Tommy already covered that so I left it out.

SpaceAce

[34TheTruth34]

I would check this flop every once in a while (say 75-80% bet out and 20-25% try to check raise), but I think clearly this is not the time to do it.

The main reason IMO is because the pot is four-handed instead of two or three-handed. A free card is not so dangerous on this board, but when you start adding in a bunch of opponents, they probably have a good amount of outs added up. Heads up, I'd almost always check-raise here. But as you start adding more opponents, it gets more and more dangerous to give them a free look.

The second reason is because the pot is already pretty big just from the preflop action. I'd say you have to start trying to get them to fold. Ideally, the preflop three-bettor will raise out the rest of the field and you can take it from there.

I don't know why you got so dismayed when UTG bet out on the river. He clearly doesn't have a four or he would have check-raised the turn when you bet and he was last to act. You have majorly under-represented your hand here. This is a very easy call. You should never fold this hand. Not in a million years. Why does everyone always feel the need to make a big laydown?

[JTG51]

A free card is not so dangerous on this board, but when you start adding in a bunch of opponents, they probably have a good amount of outs added up.

I'm not saying I'd check the flop, but without being exceptionally creative what hands can you give them that add up to a lot of outs? Even with redraws factored in, their typical range of hands will probably only have the equivalent of 3 or 4 outs collectively.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying I'd check the flop, but without being exceptionally creative what hands can you give them that add up to a lot of outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right, not too many. I just get a little freaked out when the pot is big and I have multiple opponents. But he does have a pretty big hand that is not that vulnerable assuming a four isn't out there. I still think you have to bet here.

I don't know if it makes sense mathematically or not, but those extra opponents trying to hit their two-outer full houses or runner-runner flush draws really worry me when the pot starts to get big. I'd just rather have them fold.

[Mikey]

Ok, well first let me tell you step by step exactly what it is that I did and why I did do it.

Preflop I capped it, but I was absolutely certain that my opponent had an overpair, he only 3-bets with overpairs preflop and premium ones at that.

On the flop I figured that I was either way way ahead or way behind and there aren't that many cards that can come to hurt me, so I thought about it and decided that I was going to checkraise this flop. The last few days I have been thinking and writing notes and reading about opportunities to checkraise, and I figured that this would be an appropriate time.

Well it was disappointing when the guy to my left checked as well, I was distraught, and especially when it was checked all the way around.

On the turn when the 6 fell. I believed that I know held the best hand, so after UTG checks to me, I lead out and now get called in all the spots.
My thinking was routine, I have the best hand, and these guys don't have much, I'm going to bet the river here unless an Ace comes because of the action that has just passed.

On the river fell a 7. A card which didn't seem to help anyone. Instead this time UTG comes out and says "I'll bet."

I pondered a bit about 10 seconds. I looked at the board, and considered folding, but I just couldn't make myself fold. Now I know that the majority is going to jump on me here and say not to fold, but how could UTG possibly be betting here to steal this, its not likely of him, he's not that creative. He doesn't think like (WE) the two plus two community thinks.

I call for the .0005% chance that he's bluffing, which I know he's not and now I'm going against my judgement here, i called but I didn't like it. The guy to my left calls. and the 3-bet cold caller raised.

When the 3-better raised it I zoned right in on him.... a dead stare, I knew he didn't have anything. To me his cards were face up, he had nothing. I knew he had nothing, just by looking at him.

UTG murmurs and calls, and I yet make the 3rd mistake of the hand by calling again when I know I'm beat.

UTG +1 calls again.

The river raiser shouts out straight!!! He turns over a Q5o. He doesn't have a straight. He has nothing.

UTG turns over a beautiful T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the back door gut shot straight. I muck quietly and the man to my left flashes 2 Jacks and mucks.

Tommy Angelo brings up a very fine point by betting the flop and not disrupting the flow of the things especially because I put in the last bet preflop.

He is right.

I made a mistake. Am I mad that I lost to a runner gutshot straight, absolutely not.

I'm mad because I made 3 errors in this hand and that is the way I should be looking at it.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Tommy Angelo brings up a very fine point by betting the flop and not disrupting the flow of the things especially because I put in the last bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was nothing wrong with going for a flop check-raise given your read. It just didn't work this time.

[Mikey]

Its not the need to make a big laydown, I'm not looking to make a big laydown. I never do. To me this isn't a big laydown.